3-person thoughts

[Rich]

I'm still in one of those places where we work a mix of 2-person and 3-person. When I work 3-person, I'm working with a lot of different people, as well.

Few people here rotate enough. I've worked with so many officials who hesitate, hesitate, hesitate, and in my mind, I'm screaming "Go!" Then the L goes once the ball is already in the post -- too late, as far as I'm concerned. Some of these guys think there's nothing wrong with the C officiating on ball for an extended period while they just hang out in the close down position. On the other hand, there are times I'll go and realize once I get there that I'd actually be better back where I was -- and I'll go back. Really nothing lost -- I'm just working for the best look, the best feel.

I actually started thinking that maybe it's me -- I go *too much*. I mean, some possessions I'll go 2-3 times or more in a half-court set - back and forth. Then I worked with 2 guys I'd never worked with before earlier this week. Let's just say that my resume will never, ever be as good as theirs. It was comforting to notice that they rotated as much as I did and that the three of us really felt on the same page -- like we were one cohesive unit working in tandem.

No clue why I'm writing this other than I wanted to start a dialogue about this and say that there's a reason clinicians tell you during camp to "look for reasons to rotate" other than they want you to get practice at it.

[JRutledge]

If the possession is long I go more than 2 or 3 times. That is how our state wants it and that is how I have been taught at many camps at the college level. As a clinician that is how we are told to teach rotations as well. Then again it really depends on the team and how much they try to swing the ball. I see a lot of people not go when they should. If I am the C and the ball is in my corner, I am not standing still and waiting for them to move.

Peace

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Rich

No clue why I'm writing this other than I wanted to start a dialogue about this and say that there's a reason clinicians tell you during camp to "look for reasons to rotate" other than they want you to get practice at it.

No clue why I'm responding other than to say I completely understand your thinking on this subject and this is something I try to work on every game but because every game is different, it's difficult to get consistent and feel comfortable every game. I also work in a state where we run 2-man and 3-man crews depending on the size of the schools. Sometimes we run 2-man JV then 3-man Varsity double-headers. That's fun.

[Tio]

Rotating ballside is being emphasized in certain D1 conferences and advocated by John Adams. It seems like any time a new initiative comes out, it will take time to filter down to other levels and become teaching points at summer camps. I try to get ballside as much as possible unless a team is facing a zone defense and whipping the ball around the perimeter. There are some nights where the crew doesn't rotate nearly enough and I can only control myself so that is what I focus on.

[Scuba_ref]

I see the same thing as Rich. In our association there are the College guys (we are not close to anything so this means most of us just do JC ball but a couple go up to D2) and there are the High School Only guys. The High School Only guys never attend camps (I know because I am on the board and we reimburse camp fees.)

Now, with that compartmentalization, I see a trend where the college guys rotate way more than the high school guys. This fact is sometimes painfully pointed out during pregame where a high school guy will state "I'm not rotating"

My feeling is that officials who don't go to camp or aren't trying to get to the next level (and that next level can be JV, V or beyond) are for the most part stalled in their learning and progression.

And like Rich, I also find myself silently encouraging the Lead to rotate in many instances.

[rockyroad]

Same situation here...we have some guys who are very easy to work with because they understand the propose of rotating and work at it. And we have others who pull the "I am not rotating tonight" crap quite often...we have started to weed some of those guys out of our varsity level games, and they are getting the message.

That said, on a personal level, I would rather rotate "too much" early in the game, than not rotate often enough...

[VaTerp]

I like to pre-game to go early and go often as the L to start the game. If teams are playing zone and/or doing a lot of skip passes then we can adjust and rotate less as the game goes along.

But I'm with you. I find that many officials simply don't rotate enough or quickly enough.

Early this season I had a tip-off tournament double header and during halftime one of my partners was saying that I was rotating too quickly. The crew for the next game (I was the only one doing a double) was listening to our conversation. During our pre-game for the 2nd contest both of my new partners were like, "what the hell was he talking about? Let's rotate just like you were doing in the first game."

[Rufus]

As was pointed out during a pre-game this week, the phrase that applies is "move to improve." If there the ball is opposite, but only two players are over there, slot should be able to handle that. Once post players start moving over, or screens are getting set for players moving ball side, then it's time to get moving.

One thing that messes folks up a bunch, though, is the reluctance to close down when the ball goes opposite. I find that if I do that it makes the decision to move much easier because there's less distance to go. It also makes it easier to adjust to the quick skip back in the corner.

I've also noticed the D1 fellows rotating a bunch more than at the HS level. Our area/state emphasizes moving to improve angles, though, so it feels comfortable to me to rotate less.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rufus

As was pointed out during a pre-game this week, the phrase that applies is "move to improve." If there the ball is opposite, but only two players are over there, slot should be able to handle that. Once post players start moving over, or screens are getting set for players moving ball side, then it's time to get moving.

Usually, he could handle that better as a trail, though -- taking a step towards the division line. I'm not abandoning the other players - I'm watching them as I'm rotating over. If the ball's in the C's primary so he's on ball long enough for me to come across, I am going to do so.

Originally Posted by Rufus

One thing that messes folks up a bunch, though, is the reluctance to close down when the ball goes opposite. I find that if I do that it makes the decision to move much easier because there's less distance to go. It also makes it easier to adjust to the quick skip back in the corner.

I've also noticed the D1 fellows rotating a bunch more than at the HS level. Our area/state emphasizes moving to improve angles, though, so it feels comfortable to me to rotate less.

I think there's a valid reason the D1 officials do it more.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Rufus

As was pointed out during a pre-game this week, the phrase that applies is "move to improve." If there the ball is opposite, but only two players are over there, slot should be able to handle that. Once post players start moving over, or screens are getting set for players moving ball side, then it's time to get moving.

One thing that messes folks up a bunch, though, is the reluctance to close down when the ball goes opposite. I find that if I do that it makes the decision to move much easier because there's less distance to go. It also makes it easier to adjust to the quick skip back in the corner.

I've also noticed the D1 fellows rotating a bunch more than at the HS level. Our area/state emphasizes moving to improve angles, though, so it feels comfortable to me to rotate less.

If the ball is on C's side, I would rather rotate over so I am in position to see the post players as they come cross the key rather than wait for them to go and then follow them over there...and to say that your state emphasizes moving to get better angles so you are comfortable rotating less seems like a contradiction to me for some reason...

[just another ref]

Count your blessings. Two man here is still very much the rule, while a couple more schools have started using three. Let's just say we have some officials who think "rotate" is something you do to your tires.

[tomegun]

Years ago I heard Dave Libbey speak and he said we (officials) should have the game by the short and curlies (I hope that isn't offensive to anyone) four minutes into the game. Now, he was basing that time frame on the media timeouts he was used to, but he meant we should understand what the offense and defense are trying to do on each end. Knowing this, and the personnel each team has, is the first key to how much the crew needs to move. Teams will try to run the same plays/sets throughout the game so things will likely settle into a pattern.

Originally Posted by Rufus

One thing that messes folks up a bunch, though, is the reluctance to close down when the ball goes opposite. I find that if I do that it makes the decision to move much easier because there's less distance to go. It also makes it easier to adjust to the quick skip back in the corner.

Great point. Rotating in this manner is a great help for the crew as opposed to someone starting a rotation when they are half way between the lane line and where the three-point line meets the end line. It is also much more widely acceptable if the Lead goes half way across and comes back based on the location of the ball/players. Once of the immediates - drive, pass, shot - could happen when the Lead has went half way across the lane and a rotation will mess things up.

Originally Posted by Rich

Usually, he could handle that better as a trail, though -- taking a step towards the division line. I'm not abandoning the other players - I'm watching them as I'm rotating over. If the ball's in the C's primary so he's on ball long enough for me to come across, I am going to do so.

I was going to agree and add something else then I read this:

Originally Posted by rockyroad

If the ball is on C's side, I would rather rotate over so I am in position to see the post players as they come cross the key rather than wait for them to go and then follow them over there...and to say that your state emphasizes moving to get better angles so you are comfortable rotating less seems like a contradiction to me for some reason...

I agree.

[Freddy]

Regarding the issue, "can the L in 3-man ever rotate 'too much'?" . . .

Yes. If, for instance, the outside guards are skipping the ball back and forth without any real apparent commitment to one side of the floor to initiate a play down low. Or without any competitive post matchup to need to be observed while the ball is skipping from one side to the other. Seems there's no real need to transition to the other side at all under these circumstances.

No. As it is sometimes said, "The aim for any official is "to be in the right place at the right time to see the right play to make the right call, which might be a no-call". For the lead to rotate multiple times while, based on team tendencies or an anticipated feed pass down low to an obvious or likely post matchup is not a bad thing. While seeking to get "the slot" ahead of time, frequent rotations on the same series of plays is certainly not out of order. It sure seems more important to get oneself in position to see what needs to be seen from a good angle than any sort of artificial quota on number of times to rotate. Otherwise, as too often occurs, the reasons not to rotate will dominate over the reasons for which to rotate, and lack of proper surveillance will result.

This seems to be a valuable topic that is included in pre-games often enough that repeating it should never really ever get old.

Right?