Coach-Player misconduct: Get involved?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You realize that Webster once put in the word "Jiggy" in the dictionary based on a song and that word was not used widely by many in certain areas and I am not sure the word has been used a lot sense. Language is a fluid and complicated thing and just because a word is used in the dictionary or not, does not mean there are words or saying that are very commonly used in certain communities, regions or cultures and sub-cultures. And I will never likely see those words used in normal conversation with every day people in any dictionary. Webster is a Eurocentric publication and a lot of people are not of that persuasion. And that includes rural people that are not people of color.

Peace

[Maineac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We all work for different people and hold different positions. Where I work, I would get in trouble if that was the only reason I gave a T on the first kind of action.

Good point. And where I work, I could get in trouble for not giving a T in the situation given in the OP (assuming I heard the helping verb like the partner said he did), especially given that it was a freshman game. Around these parts, at that level, handling that with an "I can hear you" would be frowned upon.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Just because someone uses a word, it doesn't mean that person doesn't consider the word to be inappropriate. (dirty) Often that's the whole point of using the word.

I think pretty much everybody knows that the f word is considered inappropriate.

George Carlin had a monologue many years ago about "words you can't use on tv." The standard has softened considerably over time, but then, like now, the f word is at the top of the list.

Like others, I don't toss out a T every time I hear one of these words, but I will say this. If you T anybody for using the f word, this is the one time you will never hear:

"What? What did I do?"

You are absolutely right at the beginning of this post. It also does not mean that the person that hears it will assume what you say is inappropriate either or want to give a T. You can do whatever you want in these situations, me (and others) are not going to give a T on the first situation heard. Just go say something and problem would be solved. No one has said anything on this site every to change how I feel on that front.

I was never a big fan of George Carlin (surprise). I had other comedians I held in higher regard and found funnier and we are not talking about TV. But we are not talking about a sport where a lot of language is used that would not be in other aspects of our society. That is just a fact. It may not be right, but it is a fact.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Maineac

Good point. And where I work, I could get in trouble for not giving a T in the situation given in the OP (assuming I heard the helping verb like the partner said he did), especially given that it was a freshman game. Around these parts, at that level, handling that with an "I can hear you" would be frowned upon.

In a Freshman game there is likely fewer people in the gym. In a varsity game or where a lot of people are located, it would be harder to hear. I might be talking to my other partners and really not hear anyone say anything in a huddle. And most of all I doubt seriously I am going to hear a coach say much of anything where we stand as well. Not paying attention to them and certainly not listening to every word they say. But hey, some people like to trouble trouble, and that is not ever going to change.

Peace

[johnny d]

I dont give a rat's flying *uck what a coach says to his player in their huddle. If the people courtside can hear it, they can complain to the athletic director or other school administrator and they can decide how they want to handle the coach. Otherwise, it is just a word that the fragile freshman ball player you are so concerned about probably hears and says many times each day. Grow some *ucking thicker skin!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I dont give a rat's flying *uck what a coach says to his player in their huddle. If the people courtside can hear it, they can complain to the athletic director or other school administrator and they can decide how they want to handle the coach. Otherwise, it is just a word that the fragile freshman ball player you are so concerned about probably hears and says many times each day. Grow some *ucking thicker skin!

I happen to totally agree with this. I guess some here do not hear what kids say to each other very often at that age. They use that word much more than it is said to them by a coach, I can almost guarantee that one.

Peace

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You live out west. You are not Black, you are not someone from the inner city and you are not from the south side.

JRut, as I did last year I respectfully disagree and I meet two of the four criteria you put out for Camron: I'm Black and I grew up in East Flatbush, Brooklyn. I also work virtually all of my games for public schools in NYC.

I do understand what you're saying about problems arising if a T was called in your area on a player or coach for shouting profanity during a game in certain situations (and yes, I've ignored it when a kid is injured) but as I said last year if you give the players a standard they'll live up to it, mainly because they want to play.

During our pre-game captains' meetings (with the coaches in boys, no coaches in girls) we remind them of the zero tolerance on profanity. The first season ('10-11) I remember calling it about 10 times. Last season, twice. This season I haven't had to do it yet. To me that proves what I said earlier: the kids adjust, just as they do with how officials call a game on a given night.

As to your point that what some people consider profanity, others might not: in the vast majority of situations I don't buy it. Many people have never head George Carlin's "Seven Dirty Words You Can't Say On TV" routine but I think all seven are universal, especially among H.S.-age kids. If you tell them they can't use those words, that's a start.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

JRut, as I did last year I respectfully disagree and I meet two of the four criteria you put out for Camron: I'm Black and I grew up in East Flatbush, Brooklyn. I also work virtually all of my games for public schools in NYC.

I work games inside the City of Chicago, outside the City of Chicago, in the suburbs, in the rural areas, with small schools, big schools, public and private schools. If you want to know the truth, it is the private schools that have the worst language and behavior and there are in many cases not a single Black kid on either of the teams in many cases.

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I do understand what you're saying about problems arising if a T was called in your area on a player or coach for shouting profanity during a game in certain situations (and yes, I've ignored it when a kid is injured) but as I said last year if you give the players a standard they'll live up to it, mainly because they want to play..

I do not set the standards for the kids and all their behavior, that is the coaches and schools that do so. I set the standard for the game and anytime something is done we have a responsibility to judge what cross the line and should be penalized. Just like all other areas of players talking to each other or committing a violation or two post players making contact in the post. We talk to players and coaches all the time about stuff, so why is this so unusual to do it in this case?

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

During our pre-game captains' meetings (with the coaches in boys, no coaches in girls) we remind them of the zero tolerance on profanity. The first season ('10-11) I remember calling it about 10 times. Last season, twice. This season I haven't had to do it yet. To me that proves what I said earlier: the kids adjust, just as they do with how officials call a game on a given night.

As to your point that what some people consider profanity, others might not: in the vast majority of situations I don't buy it. Many people have never head George Carlin's "Seven Dirty Words You Can't Say On TV" routine but I think all seven are universal, especially among H.S.-age kids. If you tell them they can't use those words, that's a start.

I would never use the term "zero tolerance" as all that does is make you seem like you are not enforcing things when something is said and you do not honestly hear the comments. Believe it or not, we all are not trying to hear everything thing someone says. I know I ignore coaches all the time when they have lost my respect. I certainly am not in the huddle with coaches to know what they are saying. As I said I am often talking to partners and sometimes table people. I am not worrying about what coaches are saying to players and vice versa. I know as an official I do not hear what players say to each other all the time, but address the situation if I think things are getting out of hand.

Once again, do what you want to do or feel it best. I will do the same. I just do not feel that behavior of coaches is on the schools and administrators mostly and if they do something that is obvious it will be addressed by me appropriately. but then again I just said that I have other options than giving a T for every bad behavior just like I would in other parts of the game.

Peace

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Many people have never head George Carlin's "Seven Dirty Words You Can't Say On TV" routine but I think all seven are universal, especially among H.S.-age kids. If you tell them they can't use those words, that's a start.

Here's the list. It's 40 years old now, and I'd say five of them would routinely get bleeped on broadcast TV. (I've heard the other two pass.)

Rut and JMF, out of curiosity, how do your locales handle racial, religious, or sexual slurs? (Here, you're done. I've never had to deal with it.)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Rut and JMF, out of curiosity, how do your locales handle racial, religious, or sexual slurs? (Here, you're done. I've never had to deal with it.)

I guess that depends on what you mean by racial slurs? Not all comments are recognized by all of people outside of a community. I have no idea what certain communities say to each other that someone outside of that community might be offended by but my own.

And if you want what people have said to me, absolutely nothing. I handle it how I see fit if you are talking about what teammates might say to each other. If you are looking for what opponents say to each other, well that is a totally different situation. Not much tolerance for the latter.

Peace

[Maineac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

In a Freshman game there is likely fewer people in the gym. In a varsity game or where a lot of people are located, it would be harder to hear. I might be talking to my other partners and really not hear anyone say anything in a huddle. And most of all I doubt seriously I am going to hear a coach say much of anything where we stand as well. Not paying attention to them and certainly not listening to every word they say. But hey, some people like to trouble trouble, and that is not ever going to change.

Peace

There will definitely be fewer people in the gym for a freshman game, which is exactly why it's so much easier to hear. Therefore, why I'd be more likely to go get it. The rest of your post really doesn't apply to the OP, which is what I'm talking about. It was a given that both officials were present and having a quick meeting with the captains before an overtime period.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I happen to totally agree with this. I guess some here do not hear what kids say to each other very often at that age. They use that word much more than it is said to them by a coach, I can almost guarantee that one.

Peace

They also pull their pants down below their hips, but wait...we don't allow that on the court, do we...so that's a stupid argument and holds no water.

As someone who works with kids "that age" every weekday, I can tell you that they absolutely know what words are "wrong" and will use those words only I situations where they know they can get away with it. To have a coach use that language on a player is crossing a line, and if he does it loud enough to be heard by us on the court, he needs to be rung up immediately.

And the "here in my part of the country" argument against enforcing that standard is tired and overused.

[Maineac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I happen to totally agree with this. I guess some here do not hear what kids say to each other very often at that age. They use that word much more than it is said to them by a coach, I can almost guarantee that one.

Peace

I hear kids use it all the time. Doesn't make it acceptable. All the more reason I wouldn't put up with a coach using it on them in a freshman game within easy earshot of me. It's not the NBA, or even the NCAA. It's supposed to be an extension of school. Like someone else said earlier, would you accept a teacher using this kind of language in the classroom? What makes it OK here?

And johnny d, as amusing as your post was, I assure you this has nothing to do with the thickness of my skin, if you were talking to me. How would you feel about "that ref johnny d *ucking sucks!" from the coach to the players loud enough for you or your partner to "overhear?" Would you still not care what goes on in the huddle? After all, these fragile freshmen hear and say these words many times each day.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

They also pull their pants down below their hips, but wait...we don't allow that on the court, do we...so that's a stupid argument and holds no water.

As someone who works with kids "that age" every weekday, I can tell you that they absolutely know what words are "wrong" and will use those words only I situations where they know they can get away with it. To have a coach use that language on a player is crossing a line, and if he does it loud enough to be heard by us on the court, he needs to be rung up immediately.

And the "here in my part of the country" argument against enforcing that standard is tired and overused.

Well considering that no one in my entire career, including the NF has never defined what language in specifically inappropriate or not, then I guess we will go on disagreeing out this issue.

And the argument is worse to say, "I do it this way, so we all must do it" is even sillier and played out point of view if you ask me.

I would think "freaking a$$" might be considered over the top to some too. I had a parent want me to T a coach because he said "God Dagit." I told the parent, "Not everyone believes in God." The problem is everyone is using a different standard for different reasons. Then again that is life and some of you really need to get used to that fact.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Maineac

I hear kids use it all the time. Doesn't make it acceptable. All the more reason I wouldn't put up with a coach using it on them in a freshman game within easy earshot of me. It's not the NBA, or even the NCAA. It's supposed to be an extension of school. Like someone else said earlier, would you accept a teacher using this kind of language in the classroom? What makes it OK here?

Again you are missing the point about acceptability. I see officials allow all kinds of things I do not find acceptable to me, you do not see me getting upset with them when they handle situations a different way. There are other things illegal in the rules and I do not even see officials address or try to correct, but inappropriate language all of a sudden has to be the big bad rule we must enforce?

Again, a Technical foul does not solve everything. Some things can be addressed in another way and accomplish the same thing. This is sports, not social justice arena.

Actually NCAA players in my experience are usually better behaved than HS players. Those officials at that level do not do or say the things I see regularly at the HS level because those officials will quickly put them in their place. You think kids are getting the the faces of Teddy Valentine, Karl Hess or Jim Burr?

Peace