Coach-Player misconduct: Get involved?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Just about everyone that I know of. It is very common and widespread.

Camron,

You live out west. You are not Black, you are not someone from the inner city and you are not from the south side. There are a lot of people in this world you do not know, trust me on that one.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Camron,

You live out west. You are not Black, you are not someone from the inner city and you are not from the south side. There are a lot of people in this world you do not know, trust me on that one.

Peace

You (inferring some info from your post) don't live outside of northern Illinois, you're Black, you're from the inner city, and you're from the south side. There are a whole lot more people in the world than there are from that very limited demographic. Saying one very small group doesn't use the term is hardly proof that it isn't widely used.

And it is sufficiently widespread enough that Merriam-Webster has officially added it to the dictionary. (http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/14/us/new...rds/index.html)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You (inferring some info from your post) don't live outside of northern Illinois, you're Black, you're from the inner city, and you're from the south side. There are a whole lot more people in the world than there are from that very limited demographic. Saying one very small group doesn't use the term is hardly proof that it isn't widely used.

Actually Camron I am a small college rural kid. Lived in a small college town for over 25 years before moving to the area I currently live and have for 13 years.

Just stating that the people that I have been around a great deal do not use that term to describe the use of the certain word. And I was responding to someone saying that "The reason they call it an F-Bomb...." was the reason it was seen as totally inappropriate. Just stating that do not assume because you think it is so inappropriate that there are not people in this world that use that word as an adjective, noun or verb sometimes. And it does not mean that it applies to only Black people. The dirties mouths I hear are from south side (does not mean necessarily Chicago south side but the suburbs) are older white guys. Actually my demographic was quite broad, but you might not know that where you are located.

My simple point that there are more than one ways to skin a cat and I have no problem addressing bad language, just think the T is not the only option as suggested here. Sometimes all you have to say is, "I can here you...." and the issue is solved and no one knows you even made a big deal out of this. And the language totally stops. I have done so 100 times with a quiet word and they usually say, "I am sorry ref." But a T then has to be explained and then someone right or wrong is going to evaluate if that was the right thing to do and if it was appropriate at that time.

I gave a T on Thursday for something else and I was asked to explain the situation to the tournament director. And no specific language was used in that situation that was called inappropriate. We all work for different people and hold different positions. Where I work, I would get in trouble if that was the only reason I gave a T on the first kind of action.

Peace

[Maineac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We all work for different people and hold different positions. Where I work, I would get in trouble if that was the only reason I gave a T on the first kind of action.

Good point. And where I work, I could get in trouble for not giving a T in the situation given in the OP (assuming I heard the helping verb like the partner said he did), especially given that it was a freshman game. Around these parts, at that level, handling that with an "I can hear you" would be frowned upon.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Maineac

Good point. And where I work, I could get in trouble for not giving a T in the situation given in the OP (assuming I heard the helping verb like the partner said he did), especially given that it was a freshman game. Around these parts, at that level, handling that with an "I can hear you" would be frowned upon.

In a Freshman game there is likely fewer people in the gym. In a varsity game or where a lot of people are located, it would be harder to hear. I might be talking to my other partners and really not hear anyone say anything in a huddle. And most of all I doubt seriously I am going to hear a coach say much of anything where we stand as well. Not paying attention to them and certainly not listening to every word they say. But hey, some people like to trouble trouble, and that is not ever going to change.

Peace

[Maineac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

In a Freshman game there is likely fewer people in the gym. In a varsity game or where a lot of people are located, it would be harder to hear. I might be talking to my other partners and really not hear anyone say anything in a huddle. And most of all I doubt seriously I am going to hear a coach say much of anything where we stand as well. Not paying attention to them and certainly not listening to every word they say. But hey, some people like to trouble trouble, and that is not ever going to change.

Peace

There will definitely be fewer people in the gym for a freshman game, which is exactly why it's so much easier to hear. Therefore, why I'd be more likely to go get it. The rest of your post really doesn't apply to the OP, which is what I'm talking about. It was a given that both officials were present and having a quick meeting with the captains before an overtime period.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And it is sufficiently widespread enough that Merriam-Webster has officially added it to the dictionary. (Adding 'f-bomb' to dictionary makes for an 'aha moment' - CNN.com)

You realize that Webster once put in the word "Jiggy" in the dictionary based on a song and that word was not used widely by many in certain areas and I am not sure the word has been used a lot sense. Language is a fluid and complicated thing and just because a word is used in the dictionary or not, does not mean there are words or saying that are very commonly used in certain communities, regions or cultures and sub-cultures. And I will never likely see those words used in normal conversation with every day people in any dictionary. Webster is a Eurocentric publication and a lot of people are not of that persuasion. And that includes rural people that are not people of color.

Peace

[just another ref]

Just because someone uses a word, it doesn't mean that person doesn't consider the word to be inappropriate. (dirty) Often that's the whole point of using the word.

I think pretty much everybody knows that the f word is considered inappropriate.

George Carlin had a monologue many years ago about "words you can't use on tv." The standard has softened considerably over time, but then, like now, the f word is at the top of the list.

Like others, I don't toss out a T every time I hear one of these words, but I will say this. If you T anybody for using the f word, this is the one time you will never hear:

"What? What did I do?"

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Just because someone uses a word, it doesn't mean that person doesn't consider the word to be inappropriate. (dirty) Often that's the whole point of using the word.

I think pretty much everybody knows that the f word is considered inappropriate.

George Carlin had a monologue many years ago about "words you can't use on tv." The standard has softened considerably over time, but then, like now, the f word is at the top of the list.

Like others, I don't toss out a T every time I hear one of these words, but I will say this. If you T anybody for using the f word, this is the one time you will never hear:

"What? What did I do?"

You are absolutely right at the beginning of this post. It also does not mean that the person that hears it will assume what you say is inappropriate either or want to give a T. You can do whatever you want in these situations, me (and others) are not going to give a T on the first situation heard. Just go say something and problem would be solved. No one has said anything on this site every to change how I feel on that front.

I was never a big fan of George Carlin (surprise). I had other comedians I held in higher regard and found funnier and we are not talking about TV. But we are not talking about a sport where a lot of language is used that would not be in other aspects of our society. That is just a fact. It may not be right, but it is a fact.

Peace

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You realize that Webster once put in the word "Jiggy" in the dictionary based on a song and that word was not used widely by many in certain areas and I am not sure the word has been used a lot sense. Language is a fluid and complicated thing and just because a word is used in the dictionary or not, does not mean there are words or saying that are very commonly used in certain communities, regions or cultures and sub-cultures. And I will never likely see those words used in normal conversation with every day people in any dictionary. Webster is a Eurocentric publication and a lot of people are not of that persuasion. And that includes rural people that are not people of color.

Peace

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You live out west. You are not Black, you are not someone from the inner city and you are not from the south side.

JRut, as I did last year I respectfully disagree and I meet two of the four criteria you put out for Camron: I'm Black and I grew up in East Flatbush, Brooklyn. I also work virtually all of my games for public schools in NYC.

I do understand what you're saying about problems arising if a T was called in your area on a player or coach for shouting profanity during a game in certain situations (and yes, I've ignored it when a kid is injured) but as I said last year if you give the players a standard they'll live up to it, mainly because they want to play.

During our pre-game captains' meetings (with the coaches in boys, no coaches in girls) we remind them of the zero tolerance on profanity. The first season ('10-11) I remember calling it about 10 times. Last season, twice. This season I haven't had to do it yet. To me that proves what I said earlier: the kids adjust, just as they do with how officials call a game on a given night.

As to your point that what some people consider profanity, others might not: in the vast majority of situations I don't buy it. Many people have never head George Carlin's "Seven Dirty Words You Can't Say On TV" routine but I think all seven are universal, especially among H.S.-age kids. If you tell them they can't use those words, that's a start.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

JRut, as I did last year I respectfully disagree and I meet two of the four criteria you put out for Camron: I'm Black and I grew up in East Flatbush, Brooklyn. I also work virtually all of my games for public schools in NYC.

I work games inside the City of Chicago, outside the City of Chicago, in the suburbs, in the rural areas, with small schools, big schools, public and private schools. If you want to know the truth, it is the private schools that have the worst language and behavior and there are in many cases not a single Black kid on either of the teams in many cases.

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I do understand what you're saying about problems arising if a T was called in your area on a player or coach for shouting profanity during a game in certain situations (and yes, I've ignored it when a kid is injured) but as I said last year if you give the players a standard they'll live up to it, mainly because they want to play..

I do not set the standards for the kids and all their behavior, that is the coaches and schools that do so. I set the standard for the game and anytime something is done we have a responsibility to judge what cross the line and should be penalized. Just like all other areas of players talking to each other or committing a violation or two post players making contact in the post. We talk to players and coaches all the time about stuff, so why is this so unusual to do it in this case?

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

During our pre-game captains' meetings (with the coaches in boys, no coaches in girls) we remind them of the zero tolerance on profanity. The first season ('10-11) I remember calling it about 10 times. Last season, twice. This season I haven't had to do it yet. To me that proves what I said earlier: the kids adjust, just as they do with how officials call a game on a given night.

As to your point that what some people consider profanity, others might not: in the vast majority of situations I don't buy it. Many people have never head George Carlin's "Seven Dirty Words You Can't Say On TV" routine but I think all seven are universal, especially among H.S.-age kids. If you tell them they can't use those words, that's a start.

I would never use the term "zero tolerance" as all that does is make you seem like you are not enforcing things when something is said and you do not honestly hear the comments. Believe it or not, we all are not trying to hear everything thing someone says. I know I ignore coaches all the time when they have lost my respect. I certainly am not in the huddle with coaches to know what they are saying. As I said I am often talking to partners and sometimes table people. I am not worrying about what coaches are saying to players and vice versa. I know as an official I do not hear what players say to each other all the time, but address the situation if I think things are getting out of hand.

Once again, do what you want to do or feel it best. I will do the same. I just do not feel that behavior of coaches is on the schools and administrators mostly and if they do something that is obvious it will be addressed by me appropriately. but then again I just said that I have other options than giving a T for every bad behavior just like I would in other parts of the game.

Peace

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Many people have never head George Carlin's "Seven Dirty Words You Can't Say On TV" routine but I think all seven are universal, especially among H.S.-age kids. If you tell them they can't use those words, that's a start.

Here's the list. It's 40 years old now, and I'd say five of them would routinely get bleeped on broadcast TV. (I've heard the other two pass.)

Rut and JMF, out of curiosity, how do your locales handle racial, religious, or sexual slurs? (Here, you're done. I've never had to deal with it.)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Rut and JMF, out of curiosity, how do your locales handle racial, religious, or sexual slurs? (Here, you're done. I've never had to deal with it.)

I guess that depends on what you mean by racial slurs? Not all comments are recognized by all of people outside of a community. I have no idea what certain communities say to each other that someone outside of that community might be offended by but my own.

And if you want what people have said to me, absolutely nothing. I handle it how I see fit if you are talking about what teammates might say to each other. If you are looking for what opponents say to each other, well that is a totally different situation. Not much tolerance for the latter.

Peace