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Old Wed Feb 25, 2004, 11:40am
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This topic came up on a coaching site I visit. 6th grade all-star team up 40 points, 4th qtr, still pressing with starters in. Is there a point where, as a ref, you say to heck with the rules and start giving all the breaks to the team getting creamed.

Is it appropriate as a ref to nudge the jerk coach a little and say, "hey, time to call off the dogs".
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Old Wed Feb 25, 2004, 11:44am
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Quote:
Originally posted by TigerBball
This topic came up on a coaching site I visit. 6th grade all-star team up 40 points, 4th qtr, still pressing with starters in. Is there a point where, as a ref, you say to heck with the rules and start giving all the breaks to the team getting creamed.

Is it appropriate as a ref to nudge the jerk coach a little and say, "hey, time to call off the dogs".
I will not change what I have been doing.
mick
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Old Wed Feb 25, 2004, 11:45am
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I wouldn't toss the rules out the window here. Still working the game fairly. But I might make a suggestion to the coach that he should "call off the dogs."

Arizona got a national write up (can't remember where) about a program called "Pursuing Victory with Honor." I like that phrase and I might remind the coach that this behavior does help his players pursue victory with honor. Also, if tournament play or near end of season, I might let him know that, "I'd hate it if one of my stars got injured after the game was already decided."

Drop hints but we can only ref, not coach.
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Old Wed Feb 25, 2004, 12:06pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by TigerBball

Is it appropriate as a ref to nudge the jerk coach a little and say, "hey, time to call off the dogs".
I will not change what I have been doing.

[/B]
Agree with Mick. I don't think that coaches should tell us how to call a game, and I think that it's only fair that we not tell the coaches how to do their job either. You may have a case where a coach is trying to install a new press, and he wants to work on it. Who knows? Just be as consistent as you can. If there's an "unsporting" factor involved, the league administration will get involved if they have concerns.
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Old Wed Feb 25, 2004, 12:40pm
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Most tournaments in Minnesota have "mercy" rules for this age group. If a team is up by > 20 points, no press is allowed. If 4th quarter, running time. Also, "all star" teams usually don't get to participate in tournaments here unless they play up a grade. Very rare that a team gets beat by more than 20 points.
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Old Wed Feb 25, 2004, 12:59pm
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Running up the score

I concur with Mick. I often have to remind coaches to coach, and let me do the officiating. Seems like a double-standard to intervene at this point.

The rec league that I work for has a local rule that doesn't allow backcourt pressure after a 15-point lead. After a 25 point lead, we set the scoreboard to zeros on both sides (but we still keep the running score in the book).

Our league uses 6-minute quarters with stop clocks and no shot clock. I've often wondered why coaches continue to let their kids throw baseball outlet passes and jack threes with a 20 point lead. It seems to me that if there's no shot clock, the more time you can run off, the better your chances for victory.

Oh well. I've never coached before, so I should probably keep my mouth shut.
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Old Wed Feb 25, 2004, 01:53pm
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It's a tough choice when you are coaching and you get into a situation like this. We recently had a game we won 93-35. We pulled off the press after the first quarter. The second half we went with no fast breaks, no steals above the three point line. On offense, I'm not going to tell my kids to quit shooting. If the other team is not going to play defense, that is their problem. We just ran our normal offense, took our shots when they were open. I really don't know what would be more embarassing, running your normal offense, or playing keep away for 3 minutes. If I were in that situation, I would prefer a team to just run their normal offense and take their shots when they got them.
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Old Wed Feb 25, 2004, 02:01pm
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As a coach I've been in that situtation many times over the past five years. Once we get up by 20 or some teams 15. I take the press off, I do not allow the kids to break, they may not steal, and they must make five passes before they can shoot. I also have taken it as an opportunity if one of my post players was trying to learn a new move of making it a point to get her the ball and let her work on her skill. But I never want to be accused of running up the score on a team. Do any other coaches have things they do that I dont that could be helpful to me?
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Old Wed Feb 25, 2004, 02:23pm
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I tend to call quick fouls on the pressing team until they get the idea.

Most of the leauges/tournaments have press rules after 15/20 points, but if not, and they keep pressing a really bad team...

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Old Wed Feb 25, 2004, 02:31pm
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An observation:

When a team, leading by a large margin, is still playing their first 7 guys, I have often wondered, "Why?" How can it be prevented?

My only solution, and probably quite imperfect, is for the losing team to put in their known subs as a sign of concession. That sends a proper message to the winning team who may then react in kind.

Without the loser's concession line-up, the winning team stands to lose a comfortable lead with its subs against the loser's starters. The winning team risks the loss of timing and coordination, that the team had achieved that night, by merely sitting them.

Yes, I think the losing team should, properly, make the first concession move and set the path for the higher scoring team to follow.

Obviously, the losing team "needs the floor work", but the longer their *best* is out there *practicing*, then the longer, I think, the better team should be allowed to play their team the way the coach sees as best for the team, without penalty.

mick
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Old Wed Feb 25, 2004, 03:21pm
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Mick I agree. It makes sense. That could be a good move on the losing coach's part.

However, if I'm coaching a team and the game has been decided, in my favor, because of a blowout then I'm thinking about game management and season/tournament management. Last thing I want to happen is one of my valuable starters gets injured in garbage time. I'd look and feel like an idiot.

I wouldn't need the losing team to conceed by pulling its starters first.
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Old Wed Feb 25, 2004, 03:28pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by footlocker
Mick I agree. It makes sense. That could be a good move on the losing coach's part.

However, if I'm coaching a team and the game has been decided, in my favor, because of a blowout then I'm thinking about game management and season/tournament management. Last thing I want to happen is one of my valuable starters gets injured in garbage time. I'd look and feel like an idiot.

I wouldn't need the losing team to conceed by pulling its starters first.
footlocker,
Absolutely!
Like I said, "the better team should be allowed to play their team the way the coach sees as best for the team, without penalty".
mick
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Old Thu Feb 26, 2004, 08:42am
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Hey Mick

Now this is getting into the realm of coaching, but don't you think both coaches have a responsibility to both teams to do what is right for the game as a whole, not just their team. Now this does not mean jeopardizing a win, but embarassing an opponent does no good for either team.

"only the strong can show mercy, the weak must resort to cruelty" I don't know who said it, but it fits.
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Old Thu Feb 26, 2004, 09:58am
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Re: Hey Mick

Quote:
Originally posted by TigerBball
Now this is getting into the realm of coaching, but don't you think both coaches have a responsibility to both teams to do what is right for the game as a whole, not just their team. Now this does not mean jeopardizing a win, but embarassing an opponent does no good for either team.

"only the strong can show mercy, the weak must resort to cruelty" I don't know who said it, but it fits.
Tough question, TigerBball.
In a perfect world, yes.

But look at the variables they face:
The player (talent, numbers, desire, ability, willingness)
The parents (input, threats, support, lack of knowledge)
The fans (lack of knowledge, pressure to win)
The school (budgets, philosophy of sport)
The program (support staff at other levels, gym,weight room)
The opponent (history between the schools)
The Coach (intelligence, knowledge, training, previous coaches, up-bringing, amount of sleep, marital status, children, pressure at real job, debts, deaths, births)

On any given day, those factors (all of the above, none of the above, some of the above), and more, may affect any given coach.

I will offer this, though, a coach that will be around next year, probably feels some responsibility to the "game".
mick



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Old Thu Feb 26, 2004, 10:26am
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A Coach's Perspective

Dealing with situations where a coach is deliberately running up the score is complex. I believe the coaches and other administrators need to deal with the issue, not the officials.

I hate seeing a coach running up the score as much as anyone else. And while I understand the rationale of an official becoming more active with the whistle in order to tone down a coach who won't stop the thumping, I can't help but feel a bit uncomfortable with the unintended consequences of such an action.

I think you begin to open up a large can of worms with this if it becomes obvious. If you as an official show some sympathy (even if appropriate) here, you open youselves to the following questions - what other biases do officials exercise and what sets them off? I guess I'm saying that officials ought to avoid that perception altogether.

As righteous as it may seem, I don't think it's right for an official to do. Let the league administrators deal with idiots like this.
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