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Old Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:16am
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Make The Call

The book has all the right players, but has the numbers for A1 and A2 switched. No one says anything (likely because they didn't know). After half time, the table calls you over to tell you that A1 and A2 have switched jerseys and are now wearing the correct numbers according to the book.
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Old Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
The book has all the right players, but has the numbers for A1 and A2 switched. No one says anything (likely because they didn't know). After half time, the table calls you over to tell you that A1 and A2 have switched jerseys and are now wearing the correct numbers according to the book.

Adam:

Read NFHS R3-S2-A2c. Charge Team A with a TF. The TF counts towards Team A's seven and ten fouls for the second half.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:39am
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Flagrant fouls charged to both players.
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Old Fri Dec 21, 2012, 01:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Adam:

Read NFHS R3-S2-A2c. Charge Team A with a TF. The TF counts towards Team A's seven and ten fouls for the second half.

MTD, Sr.
MTD...that rule states "requiring the scorer to change a team member's or player's number in the scorebook."

In the OP I don't think the scorekeeper had to change anything...

except the stats for each team member involved....certainly not their numbers...they did that themselves when they switched jerseys.

...not saying it isn't a T...just not sure that specific rule covers it.
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Old Fri Dec 21, 2012, 02:34am
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What's the T for? Like Dan mentioned, they didn't change the numbers in the book. I can see, by rule, a flagrant for each, but I'm not sure you can use the book T here.
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Old Fri Dec 21, 2012, 07:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
What's the T for? Like Dan mentioned, they didn't change the numbers in the book. I can see, by rule, a flagrant for each, but I'm not sure you can use the book T here.
It doesn't seem like a book keeping error since the book remained the same but the players changed jerseys. Looks like a player tech per rule 10-3-1 fits...

ART. 1

A player shall not:

Participate after changing his/her number without reporting it to the scorer and an official.

PENALTY: (Art. 1) Flagrant foul. Penalized if discovered while being violated.
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Old Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:39am
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Originally Posted by PG_Ref View Post
It doesn't seem like a book keeping error since the book remained the same but the players changed jerseys. Looks like a player tech per rule 10-3-1 fits...

ART. 1

A player shall not:

Participate after changing his/her number without reporting it to the scorer and an official.

PENALTY: (Art. 1) Flagrant foul. Penalized if discovered while being violated.
Keep in mind that NFHS rules means that by applying a flagrant foul the kids are now ejected from that game and will lose the next game at that level. Unless you think that they were trying to be deceitful in some way IMO this would be a situation where prevenative officiating might be helpful. It's a harsh penality to eject 2 kids for 1 and a half games to a possible book keeping/clerical error. I've never been in this spot, that's a tough call for sure.
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Old Fri Dec 21, 2012, 07:32am
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So Smith is wearing number 21 and Jones is wearing number 33. But the book says Smith is wearing 33 and Jones is wearing 21?

But when the scorer puts points and fouls in the book, he does it based on his knowledge of the players...not the numbers they are wearing? That sure sounds like a book error to me.

The only rule I know that covers this is 10-3-1, which is a flagrant player technical for participating after changing a number without reporting it to the scorer. That does not sound like what happened here.
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Old Fri Dec 21, 2012, 07:38am
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I would say step one is to verify the team roster submitted to the scorer before the start of the game. If the book has what was submitted, then 10-3-1. If the scorer entered the info into the book wrong, then a bookkeeping error, no tech.
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Old Fri Dec 21, 2012, 03:37pm
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Adding to my Original Post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Adam:

Read NFHS R3-S2-A2c. Charge Team A with a TF. The TF counts towards Team A's seven and ten fouls for the second half.

MTD, Sr.

In the OP Adam said: "The book has all the right players, but has the numbers for A1 and A2 switched. No one says anything (likely because they didn't know). After half time, the table calls you over to tell you that A1 and A2 have switched jerseys and are now wearing the correct numbers according to the book."

When I made my OP it was 12:37amEST, it was obviously way past my bedtime, , and I did not pay attention to the sentence highlighted in red. The information contained in that sentence does change my position somewhat. Therefore by rule (NFHS R10-S3-A1) which stipulates that both A1 and A2 are charged with FTFs.

First, I would have some questions for the Scorer (this is not an all inclusive list but I think one could see that there are a number of questions that can be asked):

1) Were A1 and A2 wearing their normal jersey numbers and did you mistakenly transpose their numbers in the Scorebook?

2) Did you enter the correct numbers for A1 and A2 and did they decide to exchange jerseys without telling you?

MTD, Sr.


P.S. Let us just say that this could be, as they say in the Marine Corps, this could have been a "cluster ****".
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Last edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.; Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 03:43pm. Reason: P.S. added.
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Old Fri Dec 21, 2012, 03:51pm
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Mark, it's not a 10-3-1 issue unless they participate without informing the officials. The officials have been notified prior to them playing with the changed version.

Camron, what rule? The numbers haven't changed. Would you call a T if the switch was made right before the game started?

I can understand spirit and intent here, but by the letter, what's the rule?
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Last edited by Adam; Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 04:14pm.
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Old Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Mark, it's not a 10-3-1 issue unless they participate without informing the officials. The officials have been notified prior to them playing with the changed version.

Camron, what rule? The numbers haven't changed. Would you call a T if the switch was made right before the game started?

I can understand spirit and intent here, but by the letter, what's the rule?
You can't dodge the rule by changing the "names" instead of changing the "numbers". The player are listed in the book. If the number attached to the name is not the number the player is wearing, then that number must be changed to what they are wearing. The name is the fixed element and the numbers listed must match what that person is wearing.
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Old Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:19pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
You can't dodge the rule by changing the "names" instead of changing the "numbers". The player are listed in the book. If the number attached to the name is not the number the player is wearing, then that number must be changed to what they are wearing. The name is the fixed element and the numbers listed must match what that person is wearing.
Except that the rule doesn't say anything about changing names...it prohibits changing numbers. If the numbers are not changed, just the names moved, how does that violate the rule?

Not trying to be argumentative at all...this is one that I simply don't get. And I honestly have no idea what the names of 99% of the players are anyway...so how would we even know unless the scorer told us they switched names?
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Old Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:48pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
You can't dodge the rule by changing the "names" instead of changing the "numbers". The player are listed in the book. If the number attached to the name is not the number the player is wearing, then that number must be changed to what they are wearing. The name is the fixed element and the numbers listed must match what that person is wearing.
But that's just it, by the time the officials were notified, the players were wearing the jersey numbers as the book listed them. IOW, no changes were made to anything except the stats.

Assuming their foul counts were different after one half.
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