Make the Call

[oppool]

Here is a play from tonight's game

R1 on 2nd and 2 outs. B2 hits a grounder to center field. R1 crosses HP but doesnt touch it, B2 is tagged out sliding into 2nd for the 3rd out, R1 goes back and touches HP. Defensive team appeals R1 run should not count because he did not touch HP till after the 3rd out was recorded.


Right or wrong we did count the run my theory was the runner is assumed safe when he misses a bag and even though the 3rd out happen before R1 went back to touch he did touch before the defensive team appealed


All replies appreciated

Don

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by oppool
... my theory was the runner is assumed safe when he misses a bag and even though the 3rd out happen before R1 went back to touch he did touch before the defensive team appealed


All replies appreciated

Don

The line above says it all. He did retouch before the appeal, and therefore the run should count since he crossed HP before the third out of the inning.

Scott

[whiskers_ump]

Don,

One question?
1] Had the runner that missed HP left
the field of play. [ie. entered dugout] If so, run
does not count. [runner entering dugout/returning]

See ASA POE#1 D.1



glen

[kono]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
Don,

One question?
1] Had the runner that missed HP left
the field of play. [ie. entered dugout] If so, run
does not count. [runner entering dugout/returning]

See ASA POE#1 D.1



glen

Assuming the defense appeals?? Which would probably happen since the runner alerted them to the situation.

-Kono

[Roger Greene]

Ok guys,
I'm going to take a contrary opinion.
(This ? was originally on a baseball board, I heard, and it was discussed by some heavyweight umpires on UT. I agree with their conclusions.)

If the runner misses home, makes no attempt to retag and there is no appeal the run scores. If there is an appeal no run would score as we have an advantagous 4th out.

If the runner returns to tag the missed plate, we now have a time play, as the offensive player is acknowleging that he has not yet scored. If the return is after the 3rd out, no run scores. If it was before the time of the 3rd out the run would score.

If the runner actually tagged the plate the first time by, and then returned to retag after the 3rd out, the retag means nothing, and if the original tag was before the 3rd out the run scores.

All of these statements are based on the rules of how a run scores. The cites would be different in the different codes, but they are congruent.

Think about each one for a minute. I beleive you will see the logic of each case.

Roger Greene

[kono]

Originally posted by Roger Greene
Ok guys,
I'm going to take a contrary opinion.
(This ? was originally on a baseball board, I heard, and it was discussed by some heavyweight umpires on UT. I agree with their conclusions.)

If the runner returns to tag the missed plate, we now have a time play, as the offensive player is acknowleging that he has not yet scored. If the return is after the 3rd out, no run scores. If it was before the time of the 3rd out the run would score.

Roger Greene

Roger - this is the only part that I have a problem with (big surprise ). I understand where you are coming from, but here is my thinking.

A runner who misses a base is generally considered to have acquired that base unless an appeal is made (i.e. Runner overruns 1st on a close play - we signal Safe). Why is this situation any different?? The runner has already crossed the plate and scored - now he/she is removing the right for the defense to appeal.

JMHO

-Kono

[Roger Greene]

Kono,
Think about appeals for a minute. Think about the difference between relaxed and unrelaxed action.

If the runner had slid past home plate but failed to touch the plate as F2 received the ball, and immediatley begins to scramble back to the plate, has she scored yet. No. We would wacth F2 to see if a tag is applied. The runner, by her actions tells everbody that she has not yet scored.

Is this an appeal of the missed plate or continuing action on the tag play? I would argue that it is interprated by everone seeing the game as part of the play.

The mechanics at home are even different. If a runner misses home, the umpire makes no signal, unlike the play at first where he is instructed to give the safe signal if the runner has passed the bag before the defense touches the bag.

Also, just passing a bag does not always make a runner safe. Gross misses are misses even if the runner is technically past the bag. ie: I don't think you would find any umpire who would allow a runner to cut the corner between frist and second at a 22 1/2 degree angle missing first by several feet, and rule her safe because she was "past" first when the ball arrived. That would be gaining an advantage not intended by the rules.

The runner must have passed so close to the bag, that she could have touched it. (I have only seen this concept written as authoritave opinion in a discussion of "last time by" by G. Lucy and W. Wilson.)

Therefore, when a runner who has missed the plate, tells the opposing players, the fans, and the umpires by their actions that they have not yet scored, why would we fail to acknowledge their admission?

Roger Greene

[kono]

I don't know Roger - you're not convincing me.

In your example of the runner that cuts the corner and ends up at 2nd. Are you going to call her out for cutting that corner? No. You are going to remain silent unless/until there is an appeal. The only thing that cutting the corner did was make it more obvious that she didn't touch the base.

As for the runner at home - you are telling me that if there is no appeal being made and the runner doesn't go back to touch the plate - score the run. In the same situation if the runner "makes it right" - you disallow the run??? Get out the ejection book - you're gonna have your hands full.

BTW: What if any authorative interpretations do we have on this. J/R, JEA, NAPBL, ASA, FED???? No I won't accept UT as an authorative interp.

-Kono

[Roger Greene]

UT is not authorative, but there are very expierenced and knowlageable baseball umpires there.

No one that I'm aware of has found any official or authorative statesment on this exact play. I've never seen this play on a real diamond. It could happen in tonights game, I know.

On the play at 1st, she is out as soon as the defense touches the base with the ball in their possession. No need for the unmistakable appeal.

I'll take my chances on calling it the way I explained if it happens tonight, with ejections and any protest filed. I haven't had a lot of trouble with ejections yet this year. 158 games, no protests, 2 players ejected for throwing elbows at a defensive player that picked them off base during teh ensueing rundown, and one coach for yelling and waveing his arms toward his fans attempting to incite them folowing being sent back to his coaching box after expressing his displeasure with the results of a sqeeze play. Not too bad of an average.

Roger Greene



[Edited by Roger Greene on Jul 19th, 2002 at 02:22 PM]

[oppool]

Ok, here are some of the thoughts that have gone through my mind wondering if we had made the correct call and I am glad the one run did not make a difference in the outcome of the game.


No, R1 had not entered the dugout, he was pass HP by a step or 2 when the 3rd out was recorded he then went back to touch home is what I was informed by the PU because I was actually the FU and had the play at 2nd

BUT what goes through my mind on this is by rule book when the 3rd out was recorded the inning was over so I am not sure if we should of allowed the runner to go back and touch HP at this time AND since the infielders have not left the field of play the APPEAL would still be accepted if made properly

BUT then again we have that play that was discussed last year on the BR if he does not complete his run to 1st after the 3rd out is recorded then a 4th out can happen to nullify a run supports the runner should continue after a 3rd out is recorded

Still not sure

Don

[Edited by oppool on Jul 19th, 2002 at 03:10 PM]

[Andy]

Here's my two cents......

If the defense still has the opportunity to appeal and the runner has not entered the dugout, I am going to count the run if she comes back and touches the plate.

Until the defense leaves the field, the runner is still in jeapordy of being put out on appeal. Assuming that she has not entered the dugout, why shouldn't she have the same opportunity to touch the plate as the defense has to appeal her for an out?

[SDUMP]

"Wow, good one" is what my UIC said when I told him this one (by the way we work together, I just don't call guys when a unique play comes up - although maybe I should).
Actually, you are supposed to signal safe, after a hesitation if the runner misses the plate and the catcher misses the tag (looking in the mechanics section of the rule book) 1. so as not to tip off either team that the play is not over and 2. a runner is assumed SAFE until put out. If proper appeal is NOT made, the runner is SAFE.
I understand that the third out was made before he actually came back to touch the plate, however, the defense didn't properly appeal before he touched, so he was safe the first time, which was before the tag out at 2B.
** I got to go with run scoring, because I couldn't find anything that says it shouldn't - although I will check out the case book and bring it up at our umpire's pre-game at the state tournament meeting tonight and let some older (dare I say, wiser) heads take a crack at it. I'll let you know what they say on Monday.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Speaking ASA

Run counts. Any time a runner passes a base they are considered to have touched that base for the purpose of the rules, but still subject to proper appeal by the defense.

The defense did not appeal PRIOR to the runner returning to touch the plate. It is a timing play. Had the defense appealed prior to the touch, then you may have an argument. However, in ASA continual play is allowed even after the 3rd out as a 4th out is possible by ASA standards.

BTW, there should be no signal at the plate other than the PU pointing at the plate or runner and declaring "Run scores".