Make the call

[oppool]

3. Two outs, bases loaded, 3-2 count. With all runners going on the pitch, the batter takes ball four. R2 touches and
rounds 3rd and is picked off by the catcher before the runner from 3rd touches the plate. Does the run score?


Found this question on a baseball board. Thought I would try it here for some fun


Don

[bluezebra]

R3 scores. It's an awarded base. This is not a timing play. R2 is out when tagged after rounding 3B, but the award for the walk with the bases loaded takes precedence.

Bob

[Andy]

I'm with Bob.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by oppool
3. Two outs, bases loaded, 3-2 count. With all runners going on the pitch, the batter takes ball four. R2 touches and
rounds 3rd and is picked off by the catcher before the runner from 3rd touches the plate. Does the run score?


Found this question on a baseball board. Thought I would try it here for some fun


Don

NO PITCH! R1 is ruled out for leaving the base early. Inning over.

Slow pitch, right?

[whiskers_ump]

I am with Mike...If slow pitch, But if

Fastpitch, bluezebra has it right. Awarded base.


glen

[IRISHMAFIA]

I'm not going to let this go that easy.

The award is to B4, not the runners. I'm going to use ASA Case Play 8.6-1 as a reference though it doesn't address this exact play, I believe it may establish a precident.

ASA 6.A notes that a runner may advance without liability when forced to vacate a base when the batter is awarded first base on balls. However, the Effect also notes that in FP, the ball is still in play unless it becomes blocked.

ASA 5.5.B specifically states that no run shall score if the third out of the inning is the result of a runner being put out by a tag or live ball appeal play prior to the lead runner touching home plate.

Play 8.6-1


(In a FP game) Bottom of the 10th inning, two outs, tie score with bases loaded. B4 draws a walk. (a) B4 fails to go to 1B and instead enters his team area, although all other runners advance one base. (b) R3 does not advance to 2B and instead walks off the field, although all other runners and the batter do advance one base. Are these appeal plays or should the umpire call the infractions when he sees them?

Ruling: When a walk is issued, all runners, including the batter, must touch all bases awarded. Therefore, in (a) as soon as B4 enters his team's area, he should be called out by the umpire. Because the out occurred before the batter-runner touched 1B, it results in a force out. Since the third out is the result of a force out, no run can score on the play (b) . In neither case is it an appeal play. It must be called by the umpire as soon as offending player leaves the field of play (8.6A, 5-5B)

Actually, I believe this may substantiate an earlier thread (not sure if it was this board) where many of us thought that should be an appeal play.

However, back to this thread, If a force out on a walk can nullify a run, why not the alternative tag out during a live-ball period prior to the run scoring?

?

[Roger Greene]

"Each runner including the batter-runner is awarded:

One base:
If forced from the base occupied by a following runnr who must advance because of batter receives a fourth ball, is hit by a pitched ball..."

USSSA 9.11.D.4.

Fed and Pony should have the same clause, but my books are in the car and it is raining.

The baseball answer is clear. NAPBL rulling (I think), the runner is entitled to the next base on the award, (as in the above softball rule) and therefore any outs made beyond the base awared are not relavant to preceeding runners attaining their base. The statement was that R3 was entitled to advance to home due to the award.

The rule requiring all awarded bases to be leagally run would not negate a force out from negating the run.(USSSA 9.9)

Since the rules are congruent on this from baseball and softball, the interpertation should be the same. I would score the run if a following runner was put out after reaching the awarded base but before the run scores on the awarded base.

Roger Greene

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Roger Greene
"Each runner including the batter-runner is awarded:

One base:
If forced from the base occupied by a following runnr who must advance because of batter receives a fourth ball, is hit by a pitched ball..."

USSSA 9.11.D.4.

Fed and Pony should have the same clause, but my books are in the car and it is raining.

The baseball answer is clear. NAPBL rulling (I think), the runner is entitled to the next base on the award, (as in the above softball rule) and therefore any outs made beyond the base awared are not relavant to preceeding runners attaining their base. The statement was that R3 was entitled to advance to home due to the award.

The rule requiring all awarded bases to be leagally run would not negate a force out from negating the run.(USSSA 9.9)

Since the rules are congruent on this from baseball and softball, the interpertation should be the same. I would score the run if a following runner was put out after reaching the awarded base but before the run scores on the awarded base.

Roger Greene

"It is raining"???
Come on, Roger, you're not going to melt

Apparently, not all softball rules are written the same. I may have the opportunity to get an answer from ASA National Staff member this weekend. If I do, I'll post it on Monday.

[greymule]

The run clearly scores in baseball. I don't know USSSA, but I think in ASA the run does NOT score.

First, regarding IrishMafia's question about ASA case book 8-6.1 being an appeal: This play deals with fast pitch (live ball on ball 4), where the umpire calls the batter out for entering DBT. The same play in slow pitch (dead ball on ball 4) would be an appeal.

Interpolation from ASA case book 8.2-12 indicates that in oppool's play the run does NOT score:

(FP Only) One out, R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, R3 on 1B, the batter receives ball four and goes into the dugout. R1 is tagged by the catcher before he touches home. Ruling: Ball is live. Batter-runner is out for entering dead ball territory. Runner from third is out for being tagged off base as the force is removed.

So if we took oppool's play except that we posited 1 out instead of 2, if after they picked R2 off, they threw home and tagged that runner, the run would not score. Apparently if a preceding runner is put out, it becomes a time play.

In ASA, whenever a following runner is put out, the force is removed on all preceding runners, even (unlike OBR, Fed, and NCAA) for the purposes of missed bases. Therefore, in oppool's play, I think we could argue that, unlike in baseball, once R2 was tagged after rounding third, the runner from third was no longer forced. It becomes a pure time play, the run now solely dependent on whether it crossed before the other runner was put out.

Compare ASA case book rulings on two-out dead-ball home runs and two-out live-ball hits, where if a runner passes another runner before a run scores, the run is nullified.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by oppool
3. Two outs, bases loaded, 3-2 count. With all runners going on the pitch, the batter takes ball four. R2 touches and
rounds 3rd and is picked off by the catcher before the runner from 3rd touches the plate. Does the run score?

Don

In NFHS - YES

Following is from the 2002 NFHS Softball Case Book.

8.1.1 Situation F: "With 2 outs, bases loaded and a 3-2 count
on B6, the next pitch is a wild pitch. R1 begins advancing to
home. R2, on 2nd, is off with the pitch. She rounds 3rd base,
but is caught off the base by an excellent throw by F2 for the
3rd out. R1 had not touched home plate when R2 was tagged out at
3rd. RULING: R1 became entitled to home as soon as
the fourth ball was declared. Consequently, as soon as R1 touched
the plate, her run counts. [8-6-2].


glen

[Roger Greene]

It has stopped raining.

See Fed play 9.1.1 Situation C:
"With two outs and R1, R2 and R3 on base, B6 receives ball four. R3 touches second base and is then tagged off base for the third out before R1 has reached home base. Ruling: R1 became entitled to home base as soon as ball four was declared. Consequently, the run scores. (9-1-1b)"

The Fed rule on being awarded the next base is 8-4-3.
"A runner is entitled to advance without libility to be put out when: a. forced to vacate a base because the batter was awarded a base on balls...."

Pony is 9.5.a.

Roger Greene

[whiskers_ump]

Roger,



FED really wanted to be sure the run scores on this one.

See my post previous to yours.



glen

[Roger Greene]

Glenn,
Yea, we passed each other in the pipe.

I didn't see anything on point in Pony POEs, but the rules are the same in all three of the codes I do. (5 if you count OBR and Fed BB.)

Roger Greene

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Pony POE's have just about been verbatim from ASA even thought their book is a bit different..............

Interesting play.............

Joel

[IRISHMAFIA]

Well, I was hoping for a lot more discussion on ASA's slant and rule book wording.

Greymule picked up on what I stated and his reasoning is very sound to the point that I believe I could support such a call. Actually, I thought it was a good question and it was a good demonstation of the differences in the way rules books approach similar plays.

However, even though the wording and reasoning from case plays are not specific concerning the play at hand would support my, or greymule's, angle on the play, ASA's National Staff probably would not. After having a discussion this weekend is a member of the staff, once the runner is afforded the opportunity to advance without liability to be put out, s/he is just as well be considered to have scored (assuming the runner actually touches the plate).