Contact above the shoulders

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I disagree. "An elbow in movement but not excessive [that makes contact with an opponent above the shoulders] should be an intentional foul".

I honestly don't understand how you can interpret to mean that a non-excessively swung elbow to the head is a PC foul or incidental.

Player A chins the ball, and pivots. When they pivot the elbows do not swing faster than the shoulders or torso, contact is made with defensive player above the shoulders. This can't be intentional. The movement wasn't excessive. I have a player control, and if that little guard wants to come up and get right up on the offensive player I may have incidental.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Player A chins the ball, and pivots. When they pivot the elbows do not swing faster than the shoulders or torso, contact is made with defensive player above the shoulders. This can't be intentional. The movement wasn't excessive.

You just said contact was made above the shoulders, but the movement wasn't excessive. The POE explicitly states that the situation you just described -- and using the exact words that you just used -- "should be an intentional foul".

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Player A chins the ball, and pivots. When they pivot the elbows do not swing faster than the shoulders or torso, contact is made with defensive player above the shoulders.

So what do we have?

Incidental
PC
Intentional
Flagrant.


I know what I am calling.

[JRutledge]

Probably just a PC foul. Again the result of the contact would help, but unless something is not excessive it is just going to be a PC foul from me.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Probably just a PC foul. Again the result of the contact would help, but unless something is not excessive it is just going to be a PC foul from me.

Peace

That's what I have also.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by OKREF

So what do we have?

IMHO, the POE dictates that this "should be an intentional foul". In my NCAA-M games, this is a Flagrant 1 every time (and we pre-game it that way before every game).

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by OKREF

So what do we have?

Incidental
PC
Intentional
Flagrant.


I know what I am calling.

I have an intentional. We were specifically instructed by our rules interperter that this play is an intentional foul due to the elbow being moving.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

I have an intentional. We were specifically instructed by our rules interperter that this play is an intentional foul due to the elbow being moving.

So every coach I know, teaches players to chin the ball and pivot. We better make sure that anytime a defensive player gets up on an offensive player and just barely touches them, we better have a foul on the defense, because they are taught to chin and pivot.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by OKREF

So every coach I know, teaches players to chin the ball and pivot. We better make sure that anytime a defensive player gets up on an offensive player and just barely touches them, we better have a foul on the defense, because they are taught to chin and pivot.

Who cares what players are taught? That doesn't necessarily make it right or legal.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Rich

Who cares what players are taught? That doesn't necessarily make it right or legal.

That is true.

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by OKREF

So every coach I know, teaches players to chin the ball and pivot. We better make sure that anytime a defensive player gets up on an offensive player and just barely touches them, we better have a foul on the defense, because they are taught to chin and pivot.

I taught them this too when I coached bc I knew it would rarely be called and then it was never intentional. This didn't make it legal only effective bc it was rarely enforced.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

I have an intentional. We were specifically instructed by our rules interperter that this play is an intentional foul due to the elbow being moving.

So in some situations we are being asked to ignore the meaning of the word 'intent' in intentional foul....

[Adam]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

So in some situations we are being asked to ignore the meaning of the word 'intent' in intentional foul....

That's neither new nor isolated to this situation.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by Adam

That's neither new nor isolated to this situation.

Please elaborate as I don't know of another situation where an intentional foul is being suggested as "automatic", where no intent exists by the offending player.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Please elaborate as I don't know of another situation where an intentional foul is being suggested as "automatic", where no intent exists by the offending player.

Automatic? No. But intent is never required when excessive force is involved.