Contact above the shoulders

[OKREF]

Just heard from our state association

CONTACT ABOVE THE SHOULDERS: Contact above the shoulders by a stationary elbow may be incidental or may be a common foul. However; contact above the shoulders with a moving elbow will be a foul. This foul may be intentional or may be an excessive flagrant foul. Again--contact above the shoulders with a moving elbow will be a foul.


Is this the same with other states direction?

[DLH17]

Yes.

I'm still unclear what a "contact with a stationary elbow" might be.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Just heard from our state association

CONTACT ABOVE THE SHOULDERS: Contact above the shoulders by a stationary elbow may be incidental or may be a common foul. However; contact above the shoulders with a moving elbow will be a foul. This foul may be intentional or may be an excessive flagrant foul. Again--contact above the shoulders with a moving elbow will be a foul.


Is this the same with other states direction?

I have heard that this is what the FED wants, even if it didn't get communicated very well during the pre-season meetings (and is different from the NCAA rule, I think).

[MD Longhorn]

So ... I'm guarding Dirk Nowitski. As he goes up for a rebound, I wait until he's coming down, and jump, headbutting his elbow.

Intentional foul on him, right?

(Assuming I can jump high enough that my head is higher than Dirk's shoulders... and iffy proposition at best).

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

So ... I'm guarding Dirk Nowitski. As he goes up for a rebound, I wait until he's coming down, and jump, headbutting his elbow.

Intentional foul on him, right?

(Assuming I can jump high enough that my head is higher than Dirk's shoulders... and iffy proposition at best).

"Stationary elbow" sitch?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by DLH17

"Stationary elbow" sitch?

Well, he's coming down, so the elbow couldn't be stationary.

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Well, he's coming down, so the elbow couldn't be stationary.

Ya, I hear you...the elbow is "moving" downward. I'm wondering if "stationary" by rule means contact with the elbow is a result of the defensive player being in the wrong place at the wrong time as described in the Nowitzki rebounding scenario. I've yet to read or hear scenario that involves a "stationary" elbow. Hoping for some clarification through "case play" or hypothetical.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

So ... I'm guarding Dirk Nowitski. As he goes up for a rebound, I wait until he's coming down, and jump, headbutting his elbow.

Intentional foul on him, right?

(Assuming I can jump high enough that my head is higher than Dirk's shoulders... and iffy proposition at best).

No. If anything it might be a foul on you if he was vertical and you came under him as he was coming back to the floor. Actually it could be nothing as this is clearly a normal action not trying to cause contact or hit someone above the shoulders.

Peace

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

So ... I'm guarding Dirk Nowitski. As he goes up for a rebound, I wait until he's coming down, and jump, headbutting his elbow.

Intentional foul on him, right?

(Assuming I can jump high enough that my head is higher than Dirk's shoulders... and iffy proposition at best).

If it is Nowitski I am tossing him just because he is one of the dirtiest players in the NBA and a baby at that (following right behind Metta World Peace, which, by the way, is an oxymoron.) I would say that this would be one of your incidental contacts IMO. He was making a normal basketball move and had no intention of hitting anyone in the head with his elbow. I might call a common foul depending on how bad it looks just to cover my own butt.

[OKREF]

My thought is that a stationary elbow would be when a player "chins" the ball and then pivots and the elbows aren't moving faster than the shoulders. Contact that happens with this action would either be incidental or a common foul. If a player "leads" with the elbow, and they are moving faster than the shoulders I would have either intentional or flagrant.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by OKREF

My thought is that a stationary elbow would be when a player "chins" the ball and then pivots and the elbows aren't moving faster than the shoulders. Contact that happens with this action would either be incidental or a common foul. If a player "leads" with the elbow, and they are moving faster than the shoulders I would have either intentional or flagrant.

This is the exact direction we got from our state clinician, and we were told it came directly from the Fed (via powerpoint and a clarifying phone call.) However, that is not the direction being given by other states. Yet another poorly worded directive from the NFHS.

[packersowner]

Our assignor told us that its imperative to watch the trunk rotation vs. the pivot foot rotation. If you rotate the trunk and you have contact, it's a foul. If you have a pivot foot rotation, that its legal and in some cases might be a foul on the defense based on how they are guarding.

No matter what I struggle with this one - I have seen it 2 or 3 times and probably gotten it wrong 2-3 times. I am now focusing on getting the first foul that generally occurs which is why the offense begins to swing their elbows to begin with. Then trying to focus on whether we have violation.

I get the intent of why its a POE this year - but it really has put a lot of doubt in my mind.

Thanks for the discussion on this.

[OKREF]

I get the intent of the rule. It is extremely poorly written
I can even see the NFHS going one step further and saying that any contact above the shoulders with an elbow will be either intentional or flagrant. Even that would be easier to interpret then what we have now.

[ref3808]

Would anyone be surprised if the Fed eventually determines that any elbow set above the shoulder is a violation when there is no contact and either an intentional or flagrant foul when contact occurs?

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by OKREF

My thought is that a stationary elbow would be when a player "chins" the ball and then pivots and the elbows aren't moving faster than the shoulders. Contact that happens with this action would either be incidental or a common foul. If a player "leads" with the elbow, and they are moving faster than the shoulders I would have either intentional or flagrant.

If anyone is even close to this player and they are pivoting with elbows out I am getting them for a violation. Players have to learn to quit using their elbows as a defensive weapon on rebounding.