Turning shoulders

[JerzeeRef]

Had the plate in a recent Legion game using NFHS rules. Working 1st time with an experienced varsity official, in a makeup game. Both teams are out of the playoffs, coaches just want to get in an extra game.

1st inning, R1. Pitcher steps in, hands are a part, ball in pitching hand behind his back, he is not set. He quickly turns shoulders. looks runner back to 1st. He then looks to the plate, hands are still apart not set, then again turns quickly to 1st to look the runner back.

After the inning my partner informs the coach that, if this occured during the regular HS season he would have balked the pitcher.

I questioned him away from the coach. He explained that the spirit and intent of the rule allows the pitcher one turn of the shoulder to look back the runner. Multiple shoulder turns are not allowed, even if the pitcher has not come set.
I've looked in Fed and OBR rule and case books. I can't find anything to justify his interpretation. Am I missing something ??????

[Steven Tyler]

Your partner is misinformed.

[njdevs00cup]

Originally Posted by JerzeeRef

Had the plate in a recent Legion game using NFHS rules. Working 1st time with an experienced varsity official, in a makeup game. Both teams are out of the playoffs, coaches just want to get in an extra game.

1st inning, R1. Pitcher steps in, hands are a part, ball in pitching hand behind his back, he is not set. He quickly turns shoulders. looks runner back to 1st. He then looks to the plate, hands are still apart not set, then again turns quickly to 1st to look the runner back.

After the inning my partner informs the coach that, if this occured during the regular HS season he would have balked the pitcher.

I questioned him away from the coach. He explained that the spirit and intent of the rule allows the pitcher one turn of the shoulder to look back the runner. Multiple shoulder turns are not allowed, even if the pitcher has not come set.
I've looked in Fed and OBR rule and case books. I can't find anything to justify his interpretation. Am I missing something ??????

Hey Jerzee, I was surprised to read that you play NHFS rules for balks. We use OBR for Legion Ball, with the exception of substitutions and sliding rules. No speed up rules either.

[Ump153]

Originally Posted by JerzeeRef

Am I missing something ??????

Yes, an informed partner.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by njdevs00cup

Hey Jerzee, I was surprised to read that you play NHFS rules for balks. We use OBR for Legion Ball, with the exception of substitutions and sliding rules.

You didn't read that.

Originally Posted by JerzeeRef

After the inning my partner informs the coach that, if this occurred during the regular HS season he would have balked the pitcher.

There is no FED support for limiting F1 to a single "look" to 1B. There are restrictions imposed about "jerking" his shoulders around to look, but those apply to OBR as well. Case 6.2.2E clearly implies that F1 may legally look over "4 or 5 times."

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbyron

There is no FED support for limiting F1 to a single "look" to 1B. There are restrictions imposed about "jerking" his shoulders around to look,

As long as it's not accompanied by any hand / arm movement, the pitcher can "jerk" his shoulders all he wants in FED (while the hands are apart).

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

As long as it's not accompanied by any hand / arm movement, the pitcher can "jerk" his shoulders all he wants in FED (while the hands are apart).

As I said, FED imposes restrictions on when/how F1 may "jerk" his shoulders.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by JerzeeRef

Had the plate in a recent Legion game using NFHS rules. ..............

Stop right there, my friend. Legion uses OBR and only OBR per National Legion Council. If your area is using FED, then they are wrong!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Stop right there, my friend. Legion uses OBR and only OBR per National Legion Council. If your area is using FED, then they are wrong!

Yeah, I think, as the OP stated, this was just an excuse for a couple of HS teams to get another game in after running out of "points" for the year. They probably are just calling it "Legion" to put a name on it.

[Ump Rube]

Originally Posted by mbyron

As I said, FED imposes restrictions on when/how F1 may "jerk" his shoulders.

Does that mean that OBR allows multiple jerks of the shoulders with arm/hand movement after the hands have come together?

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Ump Rube

Does that mean that OBR allows multiple jerks of the shoulders with arm/hand movement after the hands have come together?

no

[Tim C]

As I have intoned before the Portland Area played all Legion Games under NFHS rules until last year.

The American Legion Council demanded that to be called "Legion" games had to be played under OBR and be 9 inning games.

So starting last year over 40 "Legion" teams founded the Oregon Independent Baseball Association. This group playes NFHS rules and does not allow graduated seniors to play.

This year four more long term Legion teams left AL baseball and joined the OIBA.

OIBA is limited by school (no building mega teams by mixing schools) and therefore the quality of play is far below normal Legion programs.

[waltjp]

Your partner is thinking of the old FED rule that restricted the pitcher from turning his shoulders before he moved to the set position. I'd be interested in knowing what chapter your partner is registered with.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Ump Rube

Does that mean that OBR allows multiple jerks of the shoulders with arm/hand movement after the hands have come together?

OBR makes no mention of shoulder jerks (or other movement), whether or not the hands are joined. Either way, it's a balk to feint a throw to first. What makes a move a feint is up to the umpire. By practice, more movement is allowed before the pitcher joins his hands than after. The slower and shorter the movement, the less likely it is to be a balk.

In FED, the pitcher can move the shoulder (only -- if there's other movement it could be judged to be a feint) as much, as fast, and as far as he wants until the hands are joined. Once the hands are joined, no mevement is allowed (by rule).

[johnnyg08]

There are many legion teams in MN who use FED offense and legion defense until they get to the playoffs. With reentry, it does get more players in the game, etc...