Pushing defender away with ball?

[maven]

Me too. What advantage did A1 gain? Contact that yields no advantage — and in this instance disadvantaged the player — is generally not a foul.

[Jesse James]

Sounds like a PC to me--A1 cleared space to attempt to make a move--pushing B1 away may hinder him in filling the lane for a fast break after the steal.

[JugglingReferee]

While there was no direct body contact, it can't be fair that B1 is displaced nonetheless.

The immediate turnover negates a whistle, but without it, I think you have to at least consider calling a foul.

I'd like to see a case play that describes using the ball to clear space to move.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

While there was no direct body contact, it can't be fair that B1 is displaced nonetheless.

The immediate turnover negates a whistle, but without it, I think you have to at least consider calling a foul.

I'd like to see a case play that describes using the ball to clear space to move.

What if A1 were driving down the lane and stuck the ball out and B1 fell down from the contact with the ball?

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Adam

I've got nothing.

Originally Posted by maven

Me too. What advantage did A1 gain? Contact that yields no advantage — and in this instance disadvantaged the player — is generally not a foul.

Hmm, I guess neither one of you understand this type of play. Are you saying no foul because B2 took the ball? If I am B1 and I know that someone can use the ball like this and you wouldn't call it, I would use that to my advantage.

What if A1 does this again and instead of taking the ball cleanly B1 hacks A1 across the arm as he/she takes the ball?
What if A1 puts the ball in B1's face next time instead of his/her chest?
What if a slight push with the ball like this is used to create space to shoot?

Even a timely word of caution to A1 would help this situation.

If I was a player and knew this was allowable, I would push the envelope until you called a foul on me then I would ask you what your standard is for calling this a foul. Can I push the defender away a foot, two feet, one step, two steps, I can only do it if I get the ball stolen, only if the defender creates a jump ball?

[Adam]

So you're calling a pc foul for contact with the ball?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Adam

So you're calling a pc foul for contact with the ball?

Yes, I would. It's not a nit I'm willing to pick. If A is holding onto the ball and uses the ball to displace the defender, to me it's no different than a player using his hand/arm to push off.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Rich

Yes, I would. It's not a nit I'm willing to pick. If A is holding onto the ball and uses the ball to displace the defender, to me it's no different than a player using his hand/arm to push off.

This seems clear to me as well. I don't see how you can look at it any other way.

[maven]

Tom, if he gets an advantage from the contact, then it's a foul. Surely we agree about that.

It didn't seem that A1 got an advantage in the OP. If I'm wrong about that — which is a bit HTBT — then call the foul, but it's silly to quibble about judgment unless we have some video that could help settle it.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by maven

Tom, if he gets an advantage from the contact, then it's a foul. Surely we agree about that.

It didn't seem that A1 got an advantage in the OP. If I'm wrong about that — which is a bit HTBT — then call the foul, but it's silly to quibble about judgment unless we have some video that could help settle it.

I agree that it is a play we would need to see, but what if the second defender wasn't there to take the ball? Is the act itself something you want to be a part of your game? Even with the steal by B2 I would say something to A1 about this at least.

[HawkeyeCubP]

I want to lean toward this being a PC foul as well. If we can penalize A with a technical foul for using the ball illegally (against the spirit of the game/rules) in an instance, shouldn't we be able to for using the ball to gain an illegal advantage in this situation?

[OKREF]

Yea, at first I didn't really have an answer, but the more I think about it, I would lean to a PC.

[Welpe]

I've seen it and have called it a PC before.

Conversely would we call a push on a defender for pushing the ball into A1, knocking him back?

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Adam

So you're calling a pc foul for contact with the ball?

Depending on the severity, you aren't? Again, if I was a player that used every edge - and I did - I would leave a trail of defenders with bloody noses as a coasted to the basket. Hmmm, that may cause someone to get upset and want to fight me for popping them in the nose with the ball. Would they have a reason for being upset?

Where do you draw the line?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Depending on the severity, you aren't? Again, if I was a player that used every edge - and I did - I would leave a trail of defenders with bloody noses as a coasted to the basket. ...?

Nah, the first bloody nose will result in a Technical Foul, probably Flagrant.