Elbows, revisited

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That is what we were told too.

This is how I understood it...
With the torso speed, common.
Faster than the torso, intentional.
Excessive (slinging them around), flagrant.

I would add "sizing up" to excessive. Or, oddly enough, if it's "intentional," it's "flagrant."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I disagree, to me it seems quite clear. If the elbow is in motion and it makes contact above the shoulders it is at minimum intentional, and if excessive We need to determine if intentional or flagrant.

What part do you disagree with?
You don't think my state is teaching it this way, or you don't think they should, or you don't think the NFHS put out that direction.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by OKREF

If the elbow is in motion and it makes contact above the shoulders it is at minimum intentional.

I don't think that's true. Contact by a moving elbow can still be inadvertant. For example, if I jump for a rebound and in returning to the floor, my elbow hits the top of your head, that's not a foul of any kind, even though the elbow is obviously in motion.

They're not concerned with a moving elbow; they're concerned about a swinging elbow (whether it's being swung excessively or not).

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Adam

We were told the following;
Stationary, for this purpose, is an elbow that is moving no faster than the torso in a pivot.

This, we were told, came directly from the NFHS office, and the slide we were shown with that direction had the NFHS logo.

Further direction from the state was that if there's any question about which level to charge, to go low and upgrade after we conference.

Same here.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I don't think that's true. Contact by a moving elbow can still be inadvertant. For example, if I jump for a rebound and in returning to the floor, my elbow hits the top of your head, that's not a foul of any kind, even though the elbow is obviously in motion.

They're not concerned with a moving elbow; they're concerned about a swinging elbow (whether it's being swung excessively or not).

The rule doesn't say anyting about inadvertant...

2) An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by OKREF

The rule doesn't say anyting about inadvertant...

2) An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.

I think Scrapper meant incidental.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by OKREF

The rule doesn't say anyting about inadvertant...

2) An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.

The contact still must be illegal in order to be a foul. Contact which occurs between two players in equally favorable situations that doesn't put either at a disadvantage for normal offensive or defensive movements should be ruled incidental and not a foul at all. That rule is still in the book.

[jeremy341a]

I have the NFHS illustrated rule book and on pg 133 under rule 9-13 it show a picture of a player with the ball chinned moving the ball with elbows extrended and said if contact occurs it would be either a player-control, intentional or flagrant foul. Seems like the NHFS's stand is that this doesn't have to be an intentional foul.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Very nice summary, Bob...it is now part of my pregame. Thanks!

Bob did have a nice summary...EXCEPT THE FOLLOWING IS NOT WHAT YOUR STATE OF WASHINGTON IS TEACHING:

Quote from Bob:
(Stationary means just that; it does NOT include "pivoting at the same speed as the hips")

Stationary DOES mean pivoting at the same speed as the hips...if you agree with your State, rockyroad.