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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 15, 2012, 10:57am
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Elbows, revisited

The last elbow thread is very far afield, so I'd like to start over and try to get a general feel for how people around the country are being told to officiate the new elbow POE.

Here's what we're being told by state interpreters (although I've heard different from a local interpreter who hates what we've actually been told). All of these assume contact with an opponent above the shoulders.

Stationary elbow: This means an elbow that is not moving at all. Example: setting a screen with elbows out; or holding the ball (without pivoting) over your head or under your chin.

If contact occurs with a stationary elbow, it may be incidental or common. If a common foul, it's likely to be a team control foul.

Moving elbow or swinging (but NOT excessively) elbow: Example: after securing a rebound, player legally pivots, but the elbow accidentally hits an opponent in the head; or player holding the ball tries to pivot away from tight defensive pressure, but the elbow hits an opponent in the head.

If contact occurs with an elbow that is moving or swinging (but NOT excessively), we're being told that it's possible for very slight contact to be incidental. A graze would not be a foul. Anything beyond a graze will get a whistle. If it's truly accidental and not very substantial, it could still be a PC foul; but that we should err on the side of an intentional foul.

Excessively swung elbow: Elbow moving faster than the torso.

If contact occurs above the shoulders, this is a minimum of an intentional foul. While it could be flagrant, we don't want to DQ players unless we really feel that there was intent to strike the opponent.
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That's it in my neck of the woods. What are you guys hearing?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 15, 2012, 11:03am
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I'd like to know how to enforce a violation for excessively swinging arm/elbow that does not draw contact with an opponent.

Simple open hand stop clock violation - in bound for B1 at nearest spot where violation occurred?
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Old Thu Nov 15, 2012, 11:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLH17 View Post
I'd like to know how to enforce a violation for excessively swinging arm/elbow that does not draw contact with an opponent.

Simple open hand stop clock violation - in bound for B1 at nearest spot where violation occurred?
Correct.
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Old Thu Nov 15, 2012, 11:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLH17 View Post
I'd like to know how to enforce a violation for excessively swinging arm/elbow that does not draw contact with an opponent.

Simple open hand stop clock violation -in bound for B1 at nearest spot where violation occurred ?


It would be signal #2 (stop clock) followed by signal #27 (excessively swinging arm(s)/elbow(s) then in bound for B1 at nearest spot where violation occurred.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 15, 2012, 12:00pm
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1) First, decide whether the contact is incidental or illegal. Even contact with a moving elbow above the shoulders can be incidental (but it would be extremely rare for it to be incidental if the elbows were being Excessively Swung -- as defined in the book).

2) If the contact is illegal, then:
a) Stationary, above the shoulders: Common
b) Stationary, below the shoulders: Common
c) Moving, above the shoulders: Intentional
d) Moving, below the shoulders: Common
e) Excessively Swung, above the shoulders: Flagrant*
f) Excessively Swing, below the shoulders: Intentional

Any of the above can be "upgraded" of course, if you think the situation warrants.

* -- The rule, I think, really just says "intentional", but I'd be hard pressed not to have this as flagrant

(Stationary means just that; it does NOT include "pivoting at the same speed as the hips")
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Old Thu Nov 15, 2012, 01:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
1) First, decide whether the contact is incidental or illegal. Even contact with a moving elbow above the shoulders can be incidental (but it would be extremely rare for it to be incidental if the elbows were being Excessively Swung -- as defined in the book).

2) If the contact is illegal, then:
a) Stationary, above the shoulders: Common
b) Stationary, below the shoulders: Common
c) Moving, above the shoulders: Intentional
d) Moving, below the shoulders: Common
e) Excessively Swung, above the shoulders: Flagrant*
f) Excessively Swing, below the shoulders: Intentional

Any of the above can be "upgraded" of course, if you think the situation warrants.

* -- The rule, I think, really just says "intentional", but I'd be hard pressed not to have this as flagrant

(Stationary means just that; it does NOT include "pivoting at the same speed as the hips")
Very nice summary, Bob...it is now part of my pregame. Thanks!
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Old Thu Nov 15, 2012, 03:14pm
Lighten up, Francis.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
a) Stationary, above the shoulders: Common
b) Stationary, below the shoulders: Common
c) Moving, above the shoulders: Intentional
d) Moving, below the shoulders: Common
e) Excessively Swung, above the shoulders: Flagrant*
f) Excessively Swing, below the shoulders: Intentional
The part in red is what is troublesome (to me). I agree with your summary, but as you can tell, not everyone in my state feels the same. I hope that they include precise penalties in the rules next year.
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Old Thu Nov 15, 2012, 04:23pm
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Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
The part in red is what is troublesome (to me). I agree with your summary, but as you can tell, not everyone in my state feels the same. I hope that they include precise penalties in the rules next year.
2. Contact above the shoulders. With a continued emphasis on reducing concussions and decreasing excessive contact situations, the committee determined that more guidance is needed for penalizing contact above the shoulders.

a. A player shall not swing his/her arm(s) or elbow(s) even without contacting an opponent. Excessive swinging of the elbows occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot. Currently it is a violation in Rule 9 Section 13 Article.

b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.

1) Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.

2) An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.

3) A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or flagrant personal foul.



The NFHS saying any elbow in movement that makes contact above the shoulders should be an intentional foul. My guess is they are obviously trying to cut down on contact to the head, and as a result they want the penalty to be punitive, so the elbows will get down.
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Old Thu Nov 15, 2012, 05:03pm
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where i come from we are being told moving elbow is minimum intentional foul. doesnt matter if it is basketball play or not.
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Old Thu Nov 15, 2012, 05:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
1) First, decide whether the contact is incidental or illegal. Even contact with a moving elbow above the shoulders can be incidental (but it would be extremely rare for it to be incidental if the elbows were being Excessively Swung -- as defined in the book).

2) If the contact is illegal, then:
a) Stationary, above the shoulders: Common
b) Stationary, below the shoulders: Common
c) Moving, above the shoulders: Intentional
d) Moving, below the shoulders: Common
e) Excessively Swung, above the shoulders: Flagrant*
f) Excessively Swing, below the shoulders: Intentional

Any of the above can be "upgraded" of course, if you think the situation warrants.

* -- The rule, I think, really just says "intentional", but I'd be hard pressed not to have this as flagrant

(Stationary means just that; it does NOT include "pivoting at the same speed as the hips")
This is exactly how it was taught at our preseason clinic.
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Old Thu Nov 15, 2012, 07:18pm
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We were told the following;
Stationary, for this purpose, is an elbow that is moving no faster than the torso in a pivot.

This, we were told, came directly from the NFHS office, and the slide we were shown with that direction had the NFHS logo.

Further direction from the state was that if there's any question about which level to charge, to go low and upgrade after we conference.
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Old Thu Nov 15, 2012, 07:47pm
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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Further direction from the state was that if there's any question about which level to charge, to go low and upgrade after we conference.
That's the opposite of here. Penalize elbow contact, especially above the shoulders, severely. The idea is to protect the safety of the players.
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Old Thu Nov 15, 2012, 07:59pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
That's the opposite of here. Penalize elbow contact, especially above the shoulders, severely. The idea is to protect the safety of the players.
The impression I got is that they want that, too, but when it's borderline, we should get together and discuss it. I agree with your implication that the way they said it may lead to more hesitation than the NFHS wants.
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Old Thu Nov 15, 2012, 11:58pm
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I disagree, to me it seems quite clear. If the elbow is in motion and it makes contact above the shoulders it is at minimum intentional, and if excessive We need to determine if intentional or flagrant.
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Old Fri Nov 16, 2012, 12:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
We were told the following;
Stationary, for this purpose, is an elbow that is moving no faster than the torso in a pivot.

This, we were told, came directly from the NFHS office, and the slide we were shown with that direction had the NFHS logo.

Further direction from the state was that if there's any question about which level to charge, to go low and upgrade after we conference.
That is what we were told too.

This is how I understood it...
With the torso speed, common.
Faster than the torso, intentional.
Excessive (slinging them around), flagrant.
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