Official Book Change

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Smitty

And again I will throw it back at you and ask - charge a T for what? How do you know that line through #10 and adding of #31 wasn't there at the 10 minute mark before the game started? What exactly are you assessing the T for?

And again, the original situation still confuses me. I'm speaking in general, and still looking for a citation regarding whether, or not, the referee checks the book before the game and how it impacts on a ruling to charge a technical foul for changing the book.

[bainsey]

Out of curiosity, based on local instruction and/or culture, how many would "let this slide" in a middle school game?

[ref3808]

In this area middle school games are often squeezed into the schedule in mid afternoon and at times the visiting team shows up less than 10 minutes before the game, does a couple of quick warm up drills and away we go. Often times the coaches are scrambling to get organized, aren't aware of all of the rules and are dealing with old, passed down warm up jerseys where players have different numbers for home and away and depending on the team they are playing may even use home jerseys for an away game. Table crews are kids and parents who volunteer. I'd say it's rare, to address Bainsey's question, that this would be enforced.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Out of curiosity, based on local instruction and/or culture, how many would "let this slide" in a middle school game?

In my association, if I accept a MS game, I better not half-a$$ it. Meaning I will check the book and make each coach sign it (that's how they do it here). Last thing I need is word getting back to my assigner that I didn't bother doing my job because it was "just a middle school game". Our mantra is the game you're working is the most important game of the night. The coaches, players, and parents certainly think it is, and expect us to treat it as such. I'm not saying others wouldn't skip some of the formalities, but I won't.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Smitty

In my association, if I accept a MS game, I better not half-a$$ it. Meaning I will check the book and make each coach sign it (that's how they do it here). Last thing I need is word getting back to my assigner that I didn't bother doing my job because it was "just a middle school game". Our mantra is the game you're working is the most important game of the night. The coaches, players, and parents certainly think it is, and expect us to treat it as such. I'm not saying others wouldn't skip some of the formalities, but I won't.

If it's a game assigned by my local IAABO board's assignment commissioner (who assigns both high school games and middle school games), then I agree with Smitty 100%.

Regarding my Catholic middle school games, different assigner, different culture, we're not expected to dot all the i's and cross all the t's, and our assigner allows us to take some shortcuts, i.e. looser mechanics.

[Adam]

We generally ignore late rosters in ms games, but an actual change is different and I'd get this one.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Adam

We generally ignore late rosters in ms games, but an actual change is different and I'd get this one.

Based on my reading of the OP, and the case I cited, I don't think you should "get this one."

(But I agree with the general sentiment.)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Based on my reading of the OP, and the case I cited, I don't think you should "get this one."

(But I agree with the general sentiment.)

Home team book makes a change to a home number? I'm probably getting it. But I wouldn't talk anyone into it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Adam

Home team book makes a change to a home number? I'm probably getting it. But I wouldn't talk anyone into it.

10.1.2 (b) "The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize."

In the OP, the book was apparently changed before the game. Once you get to halftime, it's too late to penalize it.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by Adam

Home team book makes a change to a home number? I'm probably getting it. But I wouldn't talk anyone into it.

Wouldn't it be a good opportunity to turn int into a teaching moment for the coaches who may be trying to advance in their careers? Enforcing the T would help them where as you may rob them of a valuable lesson they shouldn't have to learn the hard way when they get to varsity level.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Out of curiosity, based on local instruction and/or culture, how many would "let this slide" in a middle school game?

Middle School game? ...let er slide...

Now, unsporting conduct by a MS coach...whack em' every time!

[Moosie74]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Out of curiosity, based on local instruction and/or culture, how many would "let this slide" in a middle school game?

I think it was one of those "it depends" moments. Some middle school games are highly organized and controlled. Other times they barely have enough players, odd uniforms, or other issues.

I did one game last year with a private school that didn't have enough same gender players that they ended up playing co-ed. I had male and females wearing the same numbers, illegal, yes, but it's pretty easy to identify the person anyway.

Their coach was also the soccer coach who knew very little about the game of basketball, administratively, my partner and I pointed out what was illegal but pushed on.

The book should be checked before every game, regardless of level. But in the original scenario, I am not charging a technical. But the coach will get reminded for the proper procedures.

[letemplay]

I had a similar situation several years ago as the R in a varsity district tourney game and felt I handled it correctly, still do. The game was at a nuetral site, with an official bookeeper provided. Each team had someone keeping their respective books, one an assitant coach that remained at his bench with book. The other had an adult manager that set at the table with official bookkeeper and clock operator. Towards the end of the first half, when a foul was called and reported on a particular player, the head coach of the opposing team (and of course the one that kept the book at the bench) notified me there was no player in his book by that number. After consulting with the official book, it was determined that the book had been changed when the player (sub) first made an appearance back midway through the first quarter. Apparently the other bookkeeper simply told official keeper when this player entered that his number was actually different and the official bookkeeper made the change and DID NOT tell anyone..officials or the other teams keeper. Having neither scored or fouled until this point, there was no reason for the other teams keeper (also an assist coach prob busy on bench with other stuff) to notice this player until there was need to record a foul. I ruled since we were unable to catch the change when made, we could not assess a T...much to the objections of the coach. I still see him from time to time and I believe he still thinks I was wrong. If I learned anything from that was to remind the bookkeepers(s) NOT to make any changes ANYTIME until consulting with the officials.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by letemplay

I had a similar situation several years ago as the R in a varsity district tourney game and felt I handled it correctly, still do. The game was at a nuetral site, with an official bookeeper provided. Each team had someone keeping their respective books, one an assitant coach that remained at his bench with book. The other had an adult manager that set at the table with official bookkeeper and clock operator. Towards the end of the first half, when a foul was called and reported on a particular player, the head coach of the opposing team (and of course the one that kept the book at the bench) notified me there was no player in his book by that number. After consulting with the official book, it was determined that the book had been changed when the player (sub) first made an appearance back midway through the first quarter. Apparently the other bookkeeper simply told official keeper when this player entered that his number was actually different and the official bookkeeper made the change and DID NOT tell anyone..officials or the other teams keeper. Having neither scored or fouled until this point, there was no reason for the other teams keeper (also an assist coach prob busy on bench with other stuff) to notice this player until there was need to record a foul. I ruled since we were unable to catch the change when made, we could not assess a T...much to the objections of the coach. I still see him from time to time and I believe he still thinks I was wrong. If I learned anything from that was to remind the bookkeepers(s) NOT to make any changes ANYTIME until consulting with the officials.

I think in this case a T-Foul would have been warranted. The scorekeeper made the change when the player entered, well after the 10 minute pre game mark, and when asked about it they told you when the change was made.

[letemplay]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I think in this case a T-Foul would have been warranted. The scorekeeper made the change when the player entered, well after the 10 minute pre game mark, and when asked about it they told you when the change was made.

See 10-1-2c Penalty when it occurs...not discovered. Also, ref 2011-12 casebook 10.1.2 (Foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize.)