On the shot or not

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Nitpicking for the newbies.

No taps? In thirteen games? Unless prehistoric rules are being used (that will get Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s attention), a player fouled in the act of tapping is treated the same as if he was fouled in the act of shooting, and is awarded free throws. No "gather" on a tap.

Yes, because they were all girl's basketball games. Girls tend to not tap the ball like boys do. They tend to grab the ball and throw the ball at the basket. I do not recall a single tap that you see in a boy's game for the most obvious reasons. They are not near the basket in height. And newbies need to understand that girls basketball is different than boys basketball and the actions in which a girl starts a shot is going to look different than a boy starting a shot. And often is the reason you have people once again say the most dreaded thing in basketball officiating, "On the floor....."

And yes we are not talking about a rebound, we are talking about a player going to the basket off a dribble or a pass. I have never seen a player do that without first gathering the ball. And gathering the ball does not just involve both hands and you never heard me suggest that such action involved both hands. Gather can and does involve one hand. And certainly did not see anything different this weekend.

Peace

[tref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And often is the reason you have people once again say the most dreaded thing in basketball officiating, "On the floor....."

That phrase & the "wipe off" makes it tough for partners to offer info doesnt it

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

That phrase & the "wipe off" makes it tough for partners to offer info doesnt it

Offer info? How does that work?

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Offer info? How does that work?

The lack of a makes me think you're serious.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

The lack of a makes me think you're serious.

Well, I don't always use a smiley, but when I do....

I was partly serious, but only on the specifics. I know how to offer info on plays where it's appropriate. Are you saying that you think a partner should offer info on whether a foul should result in free throws?

Are you talking about strictly double whistle scenarios?

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Well, I don't always use a smiley, but when I do....

I was partly serious, but only on the specifics. I know how to offer info on plays where it's appropriate. Are you saying that you think a partner should offer info on whether a foul should result in free throws?

Are you talking about strictly double whistle scenarios?

Uhh-Ohhh its Monday & I dont feel like smacked around by the forum after my long weekend so I'm gonna plead the 5th.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

Uhh-Ohhh its Monday & I dont feel like smacked around by the forum after my long weekend so I'm gonna plead the 5th.

Sorry, I was just looking for clarification on the sort of situation for which you'd offer assistance. No worries.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tref

Uhh-Ohhh its Monday & I dont feel like smacked around by the forum after my long weekend so I'm gonna plead the 5th.

I think his question to you was fair. I was thinking something else when you made your comments initially, I now have more questions based on what you have stated since.

If I have ruled that the player was not "shooting" and you come in and tell me they were shooting on the foul, I would be a little puzzled.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Well, I don't always use a smiley, but when I do....

I was partly serious, but only on the specifics. I know how to offer info on plays where it's appropriate. Are you saying that you think a partner should offer info on whether a foul should result in free throws?

Are you talking about strictly double whistle scenarios?

I haven't read past this post yet but it is most definitely appropriate to offer such information. In my case I have offered it more in situations where it was obvious that a player actually passed instead of shooting.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I cannot think of a single time where someone shot the ball and did not first "gather" the ball and move forward towards the basket.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

we are talking about a player going to the basket off a dribble or a pass. I have never seen a player do that without first gathering the ball.

I agree with you on both of those points. On such plays, there is almost ALWAYS a gather before the habitual motion that precedes a try. Very true.

But I think Nevada's point is that it's also possible to have a gather WITHOUT the habitual motion.

And if that's true, then it's not correct by rule to award free throws on the gather. In my experience, the habitual motion usually begins immediately after the gather; nevertheless, it is AFTER the gather.

I think in real time, during a drive to the basket the two occur so quickly that it's very difficult, if not impossible, to gather and then be fouled without starting the act of shooting. But by rule, the gather alone is not sufficient to award the free throws. JMHO.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I agree with you on both of those points. On such plays, there is almost ALWAYS a gather before the habitual motion that precedes a try. Very true.

But I think Nevada's point is that it's also possible to have a gather WITHOUT the habitual motion.

And if that's true, then it's not correct by rule to award free throws on the gather. In my experience, the habitual motion usually begins immediately after the gather; nevertheless, it is AFTER the gather.

I think in real time, during a drive to the basket the two occur so quickly that it's very difficult, if not impossible, to gather and then be fouled without starting the act of shooting. But by rule, the gather alone is not sufficient to award the free throws. JMHO.

All of that is wonderful. But we are not talking about someone gathering the ball to simply hold the ball.

Peace

[tref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

All of that is wonderful. But we are not talking about someone gathering the ball to simply hold the ball.

Peace

Exactly, if one has played the game you know when you were on a dribble drive to the basket & gathered the ball below the FT line extended that you were shooting the ball. And if its passed or a timeout is called then its no shots.
After a defender fouls a player who has gathered the ball (on a drive) our job isnt to say well his arms werent moving upward or he didnt look like he was shooting. He was shooting unless he passes the ball is a good rule of thumb.

[rockyroad]

At the risk of putting words in tref's mouth...one situation that fits what he is talking about would be a spin/curl move into the key toward the C. The C will see the contact and call the foul, but I have often said something along the lines of "We're shooting 2, right partner?" or "You had him going up, right partner?" simply because that is a play that we need to get right. I am not telling my partner what to do/call, just offering information. Majority of the time, partner simply says "Yep" and away we go. On occasion, partner has stopped and asked what I meant and we have gotten it right after a quick discussion. I think that's the kind of thing tref is talking about...

As for the difference between what JRutledge and Nevadaref are saying, imo it is shooting motion if they have gathered the ball while going to the basket. Just gathering the ball isn't enough to put them on the line. My standard response to a coach questioning that call is "2 hands on the ball going to the basket is shooting motion, coach."

[tref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

At the risk of putting words in tref's mouth...one situation that fits what he is talking about would be a spin/curl move into the key toward the C. The C will see the contact and call the foul, but I have often said something along the lines of "We're shooting 2, right partner?" or "You had him going up, right partner?" simply because that is a play that we need to get right. I am not telling my partner what to do/call, just offering information. Majority of the time, partner simply says "Yep" and away we go. On occasion, partner has stopped and asked what I meant and we have gotten it right after a quick discussion. I think that's the kind of thing tref is talking about....

Since a well respected poster confirmed it, yes that what I was talking about.
Also can occur on an immediate drive from the Cs side where they have the foul but cant see the gather due to positioning. But the L & T can clearly see that it was gathered. I use the same phrases as well. Putting it in the form of a question to allow the calling official to change their mind.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by tref

That phrase & the "wipe off" makes it tough for partners to offer info doesnt it

Originally Posted by rockyroad

"We're shooting 2, right partner?" or "You had him going up, right partner?"

Lot of difference in offering info and being asked for info in this situation. JMO