On the shot or not

[Jarm]

Anytime a player gathers and is fouled results in free throws.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

"Anytime the player gathers the ball after a dribble, it is a shot."

How do players ever throw a pass in the games which you officiate?

Originally Posted by Jarm

Anytime a player gathers and is fouled results in free throws.

You are new, so you will learn that this is a gray area, but what you wrote isn't accurate. The start of the act of shooting does not equate to the end of the dribble. The official needs to see some motion that indicates throwing for goal. (That can include pivoting movement.)

My point is that there needs to be more than just gathering the ball after the dribble.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

How do players ever throw a pass in the games which you officiate?


You are new, so you will learn that this is a gray area, but what you wrote isn't accurate. The start of the act of shooting does not equate to the end of the dribble. The official needs to see some motion that indicates throwing for goal. (That can include pivoting movement.)

My point is that there needs to be more than just gathering the ball after the dribble.

True, but if there is such indication, the shooting motion likely will have started at the gather.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

True, but if there is such indication, the shooting motion likely will have started at the gather.

We can have a nice debate about this and likely not come to a consensus, but I'll post the text of the rule and give my opinion of what it means.


Rule 4

SECTION 41 SHOOTING, TRY, TAP

ART. 1 . . .

The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try

or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne
shooter.

ART. 2 . . .

A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal

when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or
attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand
as a foul could prevent release of the ball.

ART. 3 . . .

The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually
precedes the release of the ball.

So it is a judgment call by rule and what exactly is meant by "motion which habitually precedes the release"?

Obviously the ball must be gathered prior to the release, but that doesn't equate to throwing for goal as a player must also gather the ball to pass it. I want to see a little more. I desire to see the players arms/hands do something which indicates the desire to shoot. On a jumpshot, I look for the hand to come under the ball as wrist is cocked back to shoot. On a layup or scoop shot near the basket, I look for upward movement of the arms towards the basket.

Both of those actions are very different from the mere grasping of the ball with the hands in ending a dribble. Usually that is done with the palms downward towards the floor. Shooting is done with a palm pointing upward.

These aren't all encompassing and to me are only indicators of a try, but they are also more informative, and I believe more correct per the rules, than simply looking for a gathering of the ball.

I'm not going to award FTs to a player who is driving through the lane with the ball safely tucked away in his arms and belly like a football running back when the opponent fouls him.

Now Snaqs, what are your thoughts?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Obviously the ball must be gathered prior to the release, but that doesn't equate to throwing for goal as a player must also gather the ball to pass it. I want to see a little more. I desire to see the players arms/hands do something which indicates the desire to shoot. On a jumpshot, I look for the hand to come under the ball as wrist is cocked back to shoot. On a layup or scoop shot near the basket, I look for upward movement of the arms towards the basket.

Both of those actions are very different from the mere grasping of the ball with the hands in ending a dribble. Usually that is done with the palms downward towards the floor. Shooting is done with a palm pointing upward.

These aren't all encompassing and to me are only indicators of a try, but they are also more informative, and I believe more correct per the rules, than simply looking for a gathering of the ball.

I'm not going to award FTs to a player who is driving through the lane with the ball safely tucked away in his arms and belly like a football running back when the opponent fouls him.

Now Snaqs, what are your thoughts?

Primarily, we seem to be on the same page. The only thing I would add is that my whistle will (normally) be slow enough that I've seen enough action to judge what his intent was when he got fouled. On most drives, the gather for a layup isn't that different than a gather for a pass, so a slower whistle can help me make the right call. That said, I would grant shots to a player who had merely gathered on this play at the point of the foul, provided he follows that fairly quickly with an attempt at the movements of a shot.

Now, if their running in behind the left tackle, that's different.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

How do players ever throw a pass in the games which you officiate?

I think I have been officiating long enough to know when a player might be shooting a shot and passing a ball. But if the two things are not clear, then I will default to the shot. If they do something like at the last minute try to throw a pass it is a pass and not a shooting foul. And that action is usually rare and rarely happens.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You are new, so you will learn that this is a gray area, but what you wrote isn't accurate. The start of the act of shooting does not equate to the end of the dribble. The official needs to see some motion that indicates throwing for goal. (That can include pivoting movement.)

My point is that there needs to be more than just gathering the ball after the dribble.

And some things are philosophies. I believe and was taught early on in my career by some that officiating is like three legs. One leg is rules knowledge. Another leg is mechanics and the final leg is philosophy.

The "gather" is a philosophy that a lot of people subscribe to and will continue to subscribe to despite this conversation or your reference or interpretation of the rule. There have also have even been visual interpretations from the NF on this issue in their S&I Rulebook.

Now maybe for you this does not suffice and I am OK with that feeling you have. But the reason that people use philosophies is so that they are consistent in their application of a rule and sometimes with their judgment.

Forgive me but after working about 13 games in two days I cannot think of a single time where someone shot the ball and did not first "gather" the ball and move forward towards the basket. What often officials do is to not award shots because the player did not get off the floor, which you have officials say, "On the floor" as their justification for not ruling that a player is in the act of shooting.

Now this term I used is used by many at higher levels. If is not your understanding again, I am OK with that feeling. But there are no rules that are specific to what a habitual motion entails. But it seems like you cannot make that motion until you start to gather the basketball in an attempt to shoot the basketball.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

After working about 13 games in two days I cannot think of a single time where someone shot the ball and did not first "gather" the ball and move forward towards the basket.

Nitpicking for the newbies.

No taps? In thirteen games? Unless prehistoric rules are being used (that will get Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s attention), a player fouled in the act of tapping is treated the same as if he was fouled in the act of shooting, and is awarded free throws. No "gather" on a tap.

4-42-6: A tap shall be considered the same as a try for field goal.

Just want to clear this up for the newbies. I am certain that JRutledge knows the rule.

[Freddy]

What allowance, if any, does 4-11, continuous motion, permit that is not covered by 4-44, act of shooting?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Nitpicking for the newbies.

No taps? In thirteen games? Unless prehistoric rules are being used (that will get Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s attention), a player fouled in the act of tapping is treated the same as if he was fouled in the act of shooting, and is awarded free throws. No "gather" on a tap.

Yes, because they were all girl's basketball games. Girls tend to not tap the ball like boys do. They tend to grab the ball and throw the ball at the basket. I do not recall a single tap that you see in a boy's game for the most obvious reasons. They are not near the basket in height. And newbies need to understand that girls basketball is different than boys basketball and the actions in which a girl starts a shot is going to look different than a boy starting a shot. And often is the reason you have people once again say the most dreaded thing in basketball officiating, "On the floor....."

And yes we are not talking about a rebound, we are talking about a player going to the basket off a dribble or a pass. I have never seen a player do that without first gathering the ball. And gathering the ball does not just involve both hands and you never heard me suggest that such action involved both hands. Gather can and does involve one hand. And certainly did not see anything different this weekend.

Peace

[tref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And often is the reason you have people once again say the most dreaded thing in basketball officiating, "On the floor....."

That phrase & the "wipe off" makes it tough for partners to offer info doesnt it

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

That phrase & the "wipe off" makes it tough for partners to offer info doesnt it

Offer info? How does that work?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I cannot think of a single time where someone shot the ball and did not first "gather" the ball and move forward towards the basket.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

we are talking about a player going to the basket off a dribble or a pass. I have never seen a player do that without first gathering the ball.

I agree with you on both of those points. On such plays, there is almost ALWAYS a gather before the habitual motion that precedes a try. Very true.

But I think Nevada's point is that it's also possible to have a gather WITHOUT the habitual motion.

And if that's true, then it's not correct by rule to award free throws on the gather. In my experience, the habitual motion usually begins immediately after the gather; nevertheless, it is AFTER the gather.

I think in real time, during a drive to the basket the two occur so quickly that it's very difficult, if not impossible, to gather and then be fouled without starting the act of shooting. But by rule, the gather alone is not sufficient to award the free throws. JMHO.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I agree with you on both of those points. On such plays, there is almost ALWAYS a gather before the habitual motion that precedes a try. Very true.

But I think Nevada's point is that it's also possible to have a gather WITHOUT the habitual motion.

And if that's true, then it's not correct by rule to award free throws on the gather. In my experience, the habitual motion usually begins immediately after the gather; nevertheless, it is AFTER the gather.

I think in real time, during a drive to the basket the two occur so quickly that it's very difficult, if not impossible, to gather and then be fouled without starting the act of shooting. But by rule, the gather alone is not sufficient to award the free throws. JMHO.

All of that is wonderful. But we are not talking about someone gathering the ball to simply hold the ball.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

No taps? In thirteen games?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yes, because they were all girl's basketball games. Girls tend to not tap the ball like boys do. They tend to grab the ball and throw the ball at the basket. I do not recall a single tap that you see in a boy's game for the most obvious reasons. They are not near the basket in height.

Girls basketball? Enough said. You could have officiated twenty-six girls games and still not observe a single tap, other than the jump balls to start the games, and overtime periods.

[tref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Now this term I used is used by many at higher levels. If is not your understanding again, I am OK with that feeling. But there are no rules that are specific to what a habitual motion entails. But it seems like you cannot make that motion until you start to gather the basketball in an attempt to shoot the basketball.

Peace

+1

I agree, when the ball is gathered below the FT line extended on a dribble drive to the basket & a foul by the defense is committed, they are shooting unless they pass or call timeout.

Lets look for a reason to put them on the line instead of looking for a reason to do the old "nice move kid now take it out & try again."