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The "gather" is a philosophy that a lot of people subscribe to and will continue to subscribe to despite this conversation or your reference or interpretation of the rule. There have also have even been visual interpretations from the NF on this issue in their S&I Rulebook. Now maybe for you this does not suffice and I am OK with that feeling you have. But the reason that people use philosophies is so that they are consistent in their application of a rule and sometimes with their judgment. Forgive me but after working about 13 games in two days I cannot think of a single time where someone shot the ball and did not first "gather" the ball and move forward towards the basket. What often officials do is to not award shots because the player did not get off the floor, which you have officials say, "On the floor" as their justification for not ruling that a player is in the act of shooting. Now this term I used is used by many at higher levels. If is not your understanding again, I am OK with that feeling. But there are no rules that are specific to what a habitual motion entails. But it seems like you cannot make that motion until you start to gather the basketball in an attempt to shoot the basketball. Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010) Last edited by JRutledge; Mon Jul 16, 2012 at 12:34am. |
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A Minor Point For Newbies ...
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No taps? In thirteen games? Unless prehistoric rules are being used (that will get Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s attention), a player fouled in the act of tapping is treated the same as if he was fouled in the act of shooting, and is awarded free throws. No "gather" on a tap. 4-42-6: A tap shall be considered the same as a try for field goal. Just want to clear this up for the newbies. I am certain that JRutledge knows the rule.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) |
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On this topic...
What allowance, if any, does 4-11, continuous motion, permit that is not covered by 4-44, act of shooting?
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Making Every Effort to Be in the Right Place at the Right Time, Looking at the Right Thing to Make the Right Call |
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And yes we are not talking about a rebound, we are talking about a player going to the basket off a dribble or a pass. I have never seen a player do that without first gathering the ball. And gathering the ball does not just involve both hands and you never heard me suggest that such action involved both hands. Gather can and does involve one hand. And certainly did not see anything different this weekend. Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010) |
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I gotta new attitude! |
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But I think Nevada's point is that it's also possible to have a gather WITHOUT the habitual motion. And if that's true, then it's not correct by rule to award free throws on the gather. In my experience, the habitual motion usually begins immediately after the gather; nevertheless, it is AFTER the gather. I think in real time, during a drive to the basket the two occur so quickly that it's very difficult, if not impossible, to gather and then be fouled without starting the act of shooting. But by rule, the gather alone is not sufficient to award the free throws. JMHO. |
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Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010) |
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Exactly, if one has played the game you know when you were on a dribble drive to the basket & gathered the ball below the FT line extended that you were shooting the ball. And if its passed or a timeout is called then its no shots. After a defender fouls a player who has gathered the ball (on a drive) our job isnt to say well his arms werent moving upward or he didnt look like he was shooting. He was shooting unless he passes the ball is a good rule of thumb.
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I gotta new attitude! Last edited by tref; Mon Jul 16, 2012 at 01:23pm. |
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At the risk of putting words in tref's mouth...one situation that fits what he is talking about would be a spin/curl move into the key toward the C. The C will see the contact and call the foul, but I have often said something along the lines of "We're shooting 2, right partner?" or "You had him going up, right partner?" simply because that is a play that we need to get right. I am not telling my partner what to do/call, just offering information. Majority of the time, partner simply says "Yep" and away we go. On occasion, partner has stopped and asked what I meant and we have gotten it right after a quick discussion. I think that's the kind of thing tref is talking about...
As for the difference between what JRutledge and Nevadaref are saying, imo it is shooting motion if they have gathered the ball while going to the basket. Just gathering the ball isn't enough to put them on the line. My standard response to a coach questioning that call is "2 hands on the ball going to the basket is shooting motion, coach." |
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Can't Live With Them ...
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Jul 17, 2012 at 06:18am. |
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I agree, when the ball is gathered below the FT line extended on a dribble drive to the basket & a foul by the defense is committed, they are shooting unless they pass or call timeout. Lets look for a reason to put them on the line instead of looking for a reason to do the old "nice move kid now take it out & try again."
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I gotta new attitude! |
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