On the shot or not

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

How do players ever throw a pass in the games which you officiate?

You are new, so you will learn that this is a gray area, but what you wrote isn't accurate. The start of the act of shooting does not equate to the end of the dribble. The official needs to see some motion that indicates throwing for goal. (That can include pivoting movement.)

My point is that there needs to be more than just gathering the ball after the dribble.

To absolutely no one's surprise, I completely agree.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If I have ruled that the player was not "shooting" and you come in and tell me they were shooting on the foul, I would be a little puzzled.

Peace

To absolutely no one's surprise, I completely agree.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I cannot think of a single time where someone shot the ball and did not first "gather" the ball and move forward towards the basket.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

we are talking about a player going to the basket off a dribble or a pass. I have never seen a player do that without first gathering the ball.

I agree with you on both of those points. On such plays, there is almost ALWAYS a gather before the habitual motion that precedes a try. Very true.

But I think Nevada's point is that it's also possible to have a gather WITHOUT the habitual motion.

And if that's true, then it's not correct by rule to award free throws on the gather. In my experience, the habitual motion usually begins immediately after the gather; nevertheless, it is AFTER the gather.

I think in real time, during a drive to the basket the two occur so quickly that it's very difficult, if not impossible, to gather and then be fouled without starting the act of shooting. But by rule, the gather alone is not sufficient to award the free throws. JMHO.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tref

Why? As I said, it was a really long weekend, just got back from camp (9 games in 2.5 days, 105 degrees everyday) & I'm not really up for the 7-9 posters that like to jump me just because I share principles that they havent heard yet.

I worked 13 games this weekend for three (after coming back from a funeral of a close family friend and driving over 3 hours to work on Friday) with some of the best girls basketball that you or I will ever see in one setting. Almost every D1 program you can imagine was in attendance and coaches going nuts from everything to not how to request a timeout to "Google me..." and you are worried about not being able to explain your position? Really dude???

Originally Posted by tref

APG knows of many of the principles I speak of & for some reason when he says the same things I say, nobody says boo.

APG is very articulate and points out his positions. I should not have to have him explain something you stated. He is not in this conversation, you are. I just was trying to understand what you meant and I have no reason to think you are not correct. It sounds like you are a little too sensitive.

Originally Posted by tref

I'll just say it falls under team officiating & I know how the majority of the board feels about THAT. Quite honestly, you use the word "higher levels" so I really thought this was something you were aware of as it has been around for the last 3-4 years...

Well I am just coming off of a month that I worked every day at someone's camp as a clinician and I honestly have no idea what issue that you are trying to make here. And I am sure it is a valid point, but I guess we will never know because you have a stick up your behind and worried about what someone is going to say to you. The sad thing they might say, "Yeah, I can see that."

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I agree with you on both of those points. On such plays, there is almost ALWAYS a gather before the habitual motion that precedes a try. Very true.

But I think Nevada's point is that it's also possible to have a gather WITHOUT the habitual motion.

And if that's true, then it's not correct by rule to award free throws on the gather. In my experience, the habitual motion usually begins immediately after the gather; nevertheless, it is AFTER the gather.

I think in real time, during a drive to the basket the two occur so quickly that it's very difficult, if not impossible, to gather and then be fouled without starting the act of shooting. But by rule, the gather alone is not sufficient to award the free throws. JMHO.

All of that is wonderful. But we are not talking about someone gathering the ball to simply hold the ball.

Peace

[tref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And I am sure it is a valid point, but I guess we will never know because you have a stick up your behind and worried about what someone is going to say to you. The sad thing they might say, "Yeah, I can see that."

I highly doubt it, as it seems like I am 0 for 30 when sharing principles that havent trickled down to the HS level & apparently some small college leagues yet.

As for your negative comments about me as a person, its not that at all. I'm in a great mood & really would like for it to stay this way on a Monday morning after a 7 hr drive home last night.

Me passing on breaking down why its ok for a non-calling official to provide info (the player started his habitual motion) to the calling official when he puts him on the ground as opposed to on the FT line is called being smart by not allowing myself to get caught up in Forum debates that turn sour by name calling due to ignorance.

If you have not heard of a partner telling the calling official "he had him going up" be patient, its coming to a City near you soon. If you dont want to wait, try going to some camps out of your region or at higher levels than you normally attend.
At the end of the day the calling official still has the decision to change it or keep it the same or even worse ask "are you sure."

Afterall, isnt putting a player on the floor when he should be shooting a misapplication of the rules, by rule? Either that or their judgment is just cloudy or they "think" the players arms have to be moving in an upward motion or whatever that bs myth is.

You certainly would provide info when your partner attempts to shoot FTs on an offensive (PC or TC) foul... wouldnt ya?
When the L administers the FT & says 2 when its really 3 or 1 you would provide info from the C or T... wouldnt ya?
When the AP arrow isnt working or you know the table missed switching it, you would provide that info to official administering the incorrect throw-in (before the throw-in is complete) wouldn't ya?

Just a team officiating concept man. Because they paid for a CREW of 3 that works together not 3 individuals letting each other live & die with incorrect decisions that ruin the GAME.

[tref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

All of that is wonderful. But we are not talking about someone gathering the ball to simply hold the ball.

Peace

Exactly, if one has played the game you know when you were on a dribble drive to the basket & gathered the ball below the FT line extended that you were shooting the ball. And if its passed or a timeout is called then its no shots.
After a defender fouls a player who has gathered the ball (on a drive) our job isnt to say well his arms werent moving upward or he didnt look like he was shooting. He was shooting unless he passes the ball is a good rule of thumb.

[rockyroad]

At the risk of putting words in tref's mouth...one situation that fits what he is talking about would be a spin/curl move into the key toward the C. The C will see the contact and call the foul, but I have often said something along the lines of "We're shooting 2, right partner?" or "You had him going up, right partner?" simply because that is a play that we need to get right. I am not telling my partner what to do/call, just offering information. Majority of the time, partner simply says "Yep" and away we go. On occasion, partner has stopped and asked what I meant and we have gotten it right after a quick discussion. I think that's the kind of thing tref is talking about...

As for the difference between what JRutledge and Nevadaref are saying, imo it is shooting motion if they have gathered the ball while going to the basket. Just gathering the ball isn't enough to put them on the line. My standard response to a coach questioning that call is "2 hands on the ball going to the basket is shooting motion, coach."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

I highly doubt it, as it seems like I am 0 for 30 when sharing principles that havent trickled down to the HS level & apparently some small college leagues yet.

As for your negative comments about me as a person, its not that at all. I'm in a great mood & really would like for it to stay this way on a Monday morning after a 7 hr drive home last night.

Me passing on breaking down why its ok for a non-calling official to provide info (the player started his habitual motion) to the calling official when he puts him on the ground as opposed to on the FT line is called being smart by not allowing myself to get caught up in Forum debates that turn sour by name calling due to ignorance.

Here's what surprised me, you defaulted to a passive-aggressive response. To paraphrase,
"I'm not going to get into it with you fools because you're too stupid and/or old to get it without calling me names."

I don't always agree with you, but I don't think I've ever called you names. And I know you're not that thin-skinned (you've achieved too high a level of officiating for that to be true) that you'd bow out of a debate before you even got started.

Now, for the record, your clarification doesn't seem that bad to me; as long as your added information is made quietly enough not to back your partner into a corner (he may well have had a significant foul before the gather). And while I would prefer this to be done mostly on double-whistle fouls, I can see situations where a single whistle would still work.

Personally, I'm more likely to offer an encouraging, "Are we shooting, Bill?" as opposed to waiting for him to tell me one way or the other.

[tref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

At the risk of putting words in tref's mouth...one situation that fits what he is talking about would be a spin/curl move into the key toward the C. The C will see the contact and call the foul, but I have often said something along the lines of "We're shooting 2, right partner?" or "You had him going up, right partner?" simply because that is a play that we need to get right. I am not telling my partner what to do/call, just offering information. Majority of the time, partner simply says "Yep" and away we go. On occasion, partner has stopped and asked what I meant and we have gotten it right after a quick discussion. I think that's the kind of thing tref is talking about....

Since a well respected poster confirmed it, yes that what I was talking about.
Also can occur on an immediate drive from the Cs side where they have the foul but cant see the gather due to positioning. But the L & T can clearly see that it was gathered. I use the same phrases as well. Putting it in the form of a question to allow the calling official to change their mind.

[just another ref]

At some point it might be mentioned that the release is not the key.

A guy gathers to shoot, gets hammered, pulls the ball back down as he crashes to the floor. He still gets two shots.

In the OP, what if the guy gets caught in the air behind the board attempting to pass? If he gets fouled, don't bail him out and award shots just because he heaves it up after the contact.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

At some point it might be mentioned that the release is not the key.

A guy gathers to shoot, gets hammered, pulls the ball back down as he crashes to the floor. He still gets two shots.

In the OP, what if the guy gets caught in the air behind the board attempting to pass? If he gets fouled, don't bail him out and award shots just because he heaves it up after the contact.

Agreed, with one caveat. If there is any doubt about his intent, like Rut, I'm going with a shot. Fouling a guy on his way down the lane is one thing, but fouling him when he's behind the basket is just bad basketball.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by tref

That phrase & the "wipe off" makes it tough for partners to offer info doesnt it

Originally Posted by rockyroad

"We're shooting 2, right partner?" or "You had him going up, right partner?"

Lot of difference in offering info and being asked for info in this situation. JMO

[Adam]

Free throw percentages being as horrific as I've seen them, I'm sometimes surprised at coaches arguing about this call anyway.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Lot of difference in offering info and being asked for info in this situation. JMO

I think that phrasing it that way I did both offers info to your partner and gets confirmation that we are on the same page