Play for Discussion No Call or Foul

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

To be moving at the time of body contact, a defender must have LGP...he wasn't in A1's path, he wasn't facing A1, and he was moving towards A1. If he doesn't have LGP it is a block. Very simple. Arm contact after that doesn't matter.

Actually contact can matter if the defender doesn't have LGP. Even under the RA restrictions the offense can be called for a PC/charge in certain cases:

NCAA 10-1-12a
When illegal contact occurs by the offensive player leading with a foot or unnatural, extended knee, or warding off with the arm, such contact shall
be called a player-control foul.

I don't have time right now to look for the citations appropriate to this play under NFHS and NCAA but it seems to make sense that a player from Team A can't put an elbow into a player from Team B just because the Team B player hasn't established LGP.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Actually contact can matter if the defender doesn't have LGP. Even under the RA restrictions the offense can be called for a PC/charge in certain cases:

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I don't have time right now to look for the citations appropriate to this play under NFHS and NCAA but it seems to make sense that a player from Team A can't put an elbow into a player from Team B just because the Team B player hasn't established LGP.

The rule you cite is certainly valid, but doesn't really matter if it is the 2nd contact.

In THIS play, the defender first contacted the offensive player who then might have used his arm to push him a little. The main contact was when the defender came through/over the offensive player to get in a spot for the arm to be relevant but he was already going down due to the body contact. The arm is just a distraction. It may be the easiest thing to see, but it isn't the right call.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The rule you cite is certainly valid, but doesn't really matter if it is the 2nd contact.

This, obviously, would be where we differ. I see the intial contact as simultaneous with the second contact being the elbow.

If you have it as the defender making first contact that's cool but I don't think you ignore the elbow. It made, IMO, significant contact with the defender and put him to the floor. He probably got there a little faster because he was off balance but, again, I can't ignore the elbow flashing out to create space.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

This, obviously, would be where we differ. I see the intial contact as simultaneous with the second contact being the elbow.

If you have it as the defender making first contact that's cool but I don't think you ignore the elbow. It made, IMO, significant contact with the defender and put him to the floor. He probably got there a little faster because he was off balance but, again, I can't ignore the elbow flashing out to create space.

So what's your call? PC? DF? Block?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So what's your call? PC? DF? Block?

Foul on the offensive player. That was my first post early on

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

During a dead ball (which the first contact causes), it doesn't matter unless you're going to make it intentional. And if you don't decide to call the first contact as a foul, it would really not be fair to call the 2nd contact a foul.

I'll clarify: instead of simultaneous I should've said incidental regarding the first contact. My mistake there. At any rate, going back to my first post on this - the second after the video was put up - I said I would've been willing to let things go if I hadn't seen the elbow come up.

Also, why wouldn't it have been fair to call the second contact a foul? The offensive player shot out an elbow that made contact. It's hard to let that go, dead-ball contact or not.

Even if I had felt the defender commited a foul when the players first came together in the lane I would've had a tough time letting the elbow go unpunished.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Also, why wouldn't it have been fair to call the second contact a foul? The offensive player shot out an elbow that made contact. It's hard to let that go, dead-ball contact or not.

Why? Because it was a response to the defender coming into him in a way that was not legal. You may have ruled it incidental in its direct effect but if it draws that reaction from the offense, it really isn't incidental any more. You have to judge the whole play, not the parts in a vacuum.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Why? Because it was a response to the defender coming into him in a way that was not legal. You may have ruled it incidental in its direct effect but if it draws that reaction from the offense, it really isn't incidental any more. You have to judge the whole play, not the parts in a vacuum.

Which is what I'm doing. There's no level of contact. illegal or otherwise, that justifies putting an elbow into someone's chest.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

This, obviously, would be where we differ. I see the intial contact as simultaneous with the second contact being the elbow.

So, you're saying the elbow was 2nd to contact. So the initial contact makes the ball dead and the elbow doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

If you have it as the defender making first contact that's cool but I don't think you ignore the elbow. It made, IMO, significant contact with the defender and put him to the floor. He probably got there a little faster because he was off balance but, again, I can't ignore the elbow flashing out to create space.

During a dead ball (which the first contact causes), it doesn't matter unless you're going to make it intentional. And if you don't decide to call the first contact as a foul, it would really not be fair to call the 2nd contact a foul.