Play for Discussion No Call or Foul

[JugglingReferee]

I do not have a blocking foul on 22 white (for not giving time and distance to a player without the ball) because 1 blue was not disadvantaged.

After 1 blue raised his arm and illegally contacted 22 white, his arm continued to rise up into 22 white's space. It is unclear to me if 1 blue had the ball at this point, so I am going with a common team control foul on 1 blue.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I do not have a blocking foul on 22 white (for not giving time and distance to a player without the ball) because 1 blue was not disadvantaged.

After 1 blue raised his arm and illegally contacted 22 white, his arm continued to rise up into 22 white's space. It is unclear to me if 1 blue had the ball at this point, so I am going with a common team control foul on 1 blue.

I'd suggest that blue was disadvantaged by being put in a position to react by raising his arm to fend of a defender who was in an illegal position. The only reason blue's arm was even an issue is because white was coming over his shoulder in an attempt to play the ball. It is whole unjust to penalize blue for this arm given how it developed.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I'd suggest that blue was disadvantaged by being put in a position to react by raising his arm to fend of a defender who was in an illegal position. The only reason blue's arm was even an issue is because white was coming over his shoulder in an attempt to play the ball. It is whole unjust to penalize blue for this arm given how it developed.

Raising a arm to fend off a defender is not legal regardless of how that defender got there. If you think there was a foul going over his shoulder then call the foul then but if you pass on it you can't allow the offense to displace a defender. And he was displaced. No way that was a flop as someone else has stated.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rwest

Raising a arm to fend off a defender is not legal regardless of how that defender got there. If you think there was a foul going over his shoulder then call the foul then but if you pass on it you can't allow the offense to displace a defender. And he was displaced. No way that was a flop as someone else has stated.

You have to get the first foul. If you pass on it, you really can't tag the other person for responding to it and call it the right call.

And BTW, the displacement had zero to do with the arm. That arm barely touched him. It was merely there. If you look carefully, the displacement had to do with the defender's hip running into the hip of the offensive player as he tried to squeeze by him. You can tell because the defender's body first moved away and was bent at the hip level. If it was the arm, the defender would have been pushed over from the top.

I don't know why so many want to make this play about something it isn't. This defender was late to the spot and there was a collision first. The arm is secondary.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You have to get the first foul. If you pass on it, you really can't tag the other person for responding to it and call it the right call.

And BTW, the displacement had zero to do with the arm. That arm barely touched him. It was merely there. If you look carefully, the displacement had to do with the defender's hip running into the hip of the offensive player as he tried to squeeze by him. You can tell because the defender's body first moved away and was bent at the hip level. If it was the arm, the defender would have been pushed over from the top.

I don't know why so many want to make this play about something it isn't. This defender was late to the spot and there was a collision first. The arm is secondary.

The defender was bent at the hip level because he was running. The contact with the arm was not insignificant. It's simple physics. The offensive player was running forward. His arm is moving at the same speed as the rest of the body. When contact occurs the energy is transferred to the defender. Again simple physics. Also, the defender's movement is consistent with contact in the upper torso. He would not have been pushed over because the contact was lateral and not in a downward trajectory.

I admit that after slowing the film down, I'm not as convinced it was an offensive foul, but in real time I have no problem with a team control foul. Just because the defender does not have legal guarding position does not give the offensive player the right to displace him.

[APG]

I agree with Camron...that arm out had nothing to do with the defender going to the floor. The contact that sent the player to the floor was caused by the offensive player's hip after the defender tried to reach a loose ball from a less advantageous position.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rwest

The defender was bent at the hip level because he was running.

You normally see people run while bent sideways at the hip while running?

Originally Posted by rwest

The contact with the arm was not insignificant. It's simple physics. The offensive player was running forward. His arm is moving at the same speed as the rest of the body. When contact occurs the energy is transferred to the defender. Again simple physics.

Simple physics, yes. The arm was only significant in that it happened to be between the two players when they initially came together and any potentially fouling contact with it occurred after the body/hip contact that was already sending the defender on his way.

Originally Posted by rwest

Also, the defender's movement is consistent with contact in the upper torso. He would not have been pushed over because the contact was lateral and not in a downward trajectory.

The reaction of contact at the hip level vs. chest level is different. The defender's body response was consistent with hip-level contact...it moved away first at the hip level. Lateral contact up high will cause the exact opposite effect. This even more evident when you see how the defender landed...basically on his butt with his torso upright and facing the offensive player. Getting pushed over by the arm would not create that result. It would have sent him down in a completely different manner.

You basically had two bodies moving that came together. To be moving at the time of body contact, a defender must have LGP...he wasn't in A1's path, he wasn't facing A1, and he was moving towards A1. If he doesn't have LGP it is a block. Very simple. Arm contact after that doesn't matter.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

To be moving at the time of body contact, a defender must have LGP...he wasn't in A1's path, he wasn't facing A1, and he was moving towards A1. If he doesn't have LGP it is a block. Very simple. Arm contact after that doesn't matter.

Actually contact can matter if the defender doesn't have LGP. Even under the RA restrictions the offense can be called for a PC/charge in certain cases:

NCAA 10-1-12a
When illegal contact occurs by the offensive player leading with a foot or unnatural, extended knee, or warding off with the arm, such contact shall
be called a player-control foul.

I don't have time right now to look for the citations appropriate to this play under NFHS and NCAA but it seems to make sense that a player from Team A can't put an elbow into a player from Team B just because the Team B player hasn't established LGP.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Simple physics. You basically had two bodies moving that came together.