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Thu Jul 14, 2005, 11:40am
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THis play happened in an 11u game I was watching after my son's game last night:
Last inning, bases loaded, two outs, home team is batting and down by 3 runs. The pitcher walks the batter, forcing home a run. The runner at 2nd, seeing that nobody is paying attention, heads for home, too. The catcher tags him high, and umpire safe. But...he changes his mind saying the first runner never touched home plate, so the first runner was out, the run didn't count, and the game is over. What rule(s) applies here? The rule book states that a runner that is entitled to a base uncontested may be put out by touching the base or tagging the runner if he forfeits the base by going past it. I know that if a runner returns to the dugout without touching home he can be put out by stepping on the plate. But what if the catcher makes a play on the next runner? Does he then forfeit his right to put out the first runner? Can they then make a play on the first runner after the second one has already scored? Or could the second runner be called out because, by crossing home plate before the runner ahead of him actually did, he passed another runner ahead of him? 
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Thu Jul 14, 2005, 11:55am
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The runner has to run the bases properly. If he misses home (or whatever base) he can be called out on appeal.
That said, the umpire should not have called the runner out unless the defense appealed the miss. You have to pass a runner physically, not virtually. 7.12. [Edited by Rich Ives on Jul 14th, 2005 at 12:59 PM]
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Rich Ives Different does not equate to wrong
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Thu Jul 14, 2005, 02:08pm
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Quote:
After reading your most recent article, I assumed that every qustion would require several sources to find the correct response. In your article, you say members of the Official Forum berate coaches who ask stupid questions. What is wrong with that? 1. Every coach question is always a simple question that could be learned by reading the rule book. In a previous post, I cited about 7 questions from eteamz, and all were simple questions. 2. Why is a coach even posting a question on the Official Forum. Officiating.com says that the Official Forum is "the best discussion forum for officials on the net!" It does not say it is a place for coaches to come and ask questions. Why are you trying to turn this in to etemaz?
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Thu Jul 14, 2005, 03:03pm
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I propose a new systems limitation requiring a new user to have at least 50 responses on other peoples' threads before being allowed to create a new thread of their own. Coaches would not bother to create an id and make new posts like the one here if they had to participate in the forum for a while before initiating questions. Questions like this one would be nearly completely eliminated.
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"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson
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Thu Jul 14, 2005, 03:57pm
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Normally I agree with the frustration at coaches for posting questions that a first read of a rulebook will answer. Coaches have a duty to be familiar with the basic rules of any game they are teaching kids to play.
In this case however, I'll disagree since this person is a fan, (I've never read a football or basketball rulebook in my life, since I am only a fan of those games) and he did not come here whining about the umpire screwing his kid's team, which is usually what we get from fans. He asked a question that happened in a game that his kid was not playing in. He probably innocently left out the detail on whether or not the defense actually appealed. He included enough detail to get a proper answer, assuming the defense appealed. In this case, if the lead runner missed the plate, and the defense properly appealed for the third out, no following runners are allowed to score. As posted above, you must physically pass a runner on the base path to be called out.
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Thu Jul 14, 2005, 04:00pm
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Actually the "Official Forum Rules" state as follows:
"The Official Forum was created by Right Sports, Inc. and is intended to provide a safe haven for officials of all levels to come to discuss their avocation. Whether Little League or NCAA, this is the place for officials to discuss rules, mechanics, philosophy, and anything else related to officiating. FANS, COACHES, PLAYERS, and ALL NON-OFFICIALS: You are welcome to participate, ask questions, give comments, etc. Please respect that this is a discussion forum for sports officials - attacks will not be tolerated. Officials: This site was created to help officials around the world seek excellence in their avocation. While there may be disagreements in philosophy, rules, etc. personal attacks will not be tolerated. Just as in any game you would officiate, "disruptors" have no place here. As officials, we must support each other, because very few other people do." So technically he can be in here asking questions, and he asked a good question coming from a parent. At least it wasn't a "Wasn't that a balk blue?" question when the kid fake picked to third and went to first or something like that.
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Thu Jul 14, 2005, 05:36pm
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Luke:
Where did I ever say most of the answers aren't in the rule book? Most are. BUT, there are a multitude that aren't. That's why Roder wrote his "More than 100 Problems . . " book and why people in the know constantly talk about the rules having a multitude of errors. As for questions, try this one: http://eteamz.active.com/baseball/bo...cfm?id=1343715 Cherry-picking a board doesn't prove anything. And the basis of my article(s) is that you can't, with any semblance of logic, BOTH complain that people don't know the rules AND refuse to assist them in learning them.
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Rich Ives Different does not equate to wrong
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Thu Jul 14, 2005, 07:38pm
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I really don't understand the "mystery" thing mikebran
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Thu Jul 14, 2005, 08:44pm
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Piss, piss, piss... Why can't we answer the damn question like any good umpire who has a question from a coach and move on? It's a simple question, with a simple answer, already answered I might add, before the tirade began.
Why is a coach posting on an umpire forum? Because it's a free country, where a coach might think he would get a straight answer from umpires. But no, not here. Just a bunch of smart remarks from umpires who don't want anything to do with coach's questions, only questions from their peers, and then only if the question is deemed worthy. If an umpire here does not want to participate he should shut the hell up, don't post, don't answer, don't complain about having a coach on here asking questions. It's just that simple. HOLY COW!
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Thu Jul 14, 2005, 08:50pm
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What would be nice to have is a section titles "Ask an umpire" where fans/parents/coaches could post questions. And those of us not interested in such discussions could just avoid that discussion area.
Just a thought.
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Thu Jul 14, 2005, 09:03pm
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Thu Jul 14, 2005, 09:30pm
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Good point DG. Sad, but true
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Thu Jul 14, 2005, 11:27pm
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