Play for Discussion No Call or Foul

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You have to get the first foul. If you pass on it, you really can't tag the other person for responding to it and call it the right call.

And BTW, the displacement had zero to do with the arm. That arm barely touched him. It was merely there. If you look carefully, the displacement had to do with the defender's hip running into the hip of the offensive player as he tried to squeeze by him. You can tell because the defender's body first moved away and was bent at the hip level. If it was the arm, the defender would have been pushed over from the top.

I don't know why so many want to make this play about something it isn't. This defender was late to the spot and there was a collision first. The arm is secondary.

The defender was bent at the hip level because he was running. The contact with the arm was not insignificant. It's simple physics. The offensive player was running forward. His arm is moving at the same speed as the rest of the body. When contact occurs the energy is transferred to the defender. Again simple physics. Also, the defender's movement is consistent with contact in the upper torso. He would not have been pushed over because the contact was lateral and not in a downward trajectory.

I admit that after slowing the film down, I'm not as convinced it was an offensive foul, but in real time I have no problem with a team control foul. Just because the defender does not have legal guarding position does not give the offensive player the right to displace him.

[APG]

I agree with Camron...that arm out had nothing to do with the defender going to the floor. The contact that sent the player to the floor was caused by the offensive player's hip after the defender tried to reach a loose ball from a less advantageous position.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rwest

The defender was bent at the hip level because he was running.

You normally see people run while bent sideways at the hip while running?

Originally Posted by rwest

The contact with the arm was not insignificant. It's simple physics. The offensive player was running forward. His arm is moving at the same speed as the rest of the body. When contact occurs the energy is transferred to the defender. Again simple physics.

Simple physics, yes. The arm was only significant in that it happened to be between the two players when they initially came together and any potentially fouling contact with it occurred after the body/hip contact that was already sending the defender on his way.

Originally Posted by rwest

Also, the defender's movement is consistent with contact in the upper torso. He would not have been pushed over because the contact was lateral and not in a downward trajectory.

The reaction of contact at the hip level vs. chest level is different. The defender's body response was consistent with hip-level contact...it moved away first at the hip level. Lateral contact up high will cause the exact opposite effect. This even more evident when you see how the defender landed...basically on his butt with his torso upright and facing the offensive player. Getting pushed over by the arm would not create that result. It would have sent him down in a completely different manner.

You basically had two bodies moving that came together. To be moving at the time of body contact, a defender must have LGP...he wasn't in A1's path, he wasn't facing A1, and he was moving towards A1. If he doesn't have LGP it is a block. Very simple. Arm contact after that doesn't matter.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

To be moving at the time of body contact, a defender must have LGP...he wasn't in A1's path, he wasn't facing A1, and he was moving towards A1. If he doesn't have LGP it is a block. Very simple. Arm contact after that doesn't matter.

Actually contact can matter if the defender doesn't have LGP. Even under the RA restrictions the offense can be called for a PC/charge in certain cases:

NCAA 10-1-12a
When illegal contact occurs by the offensive player leading with a foot or unnatural, extended knee, or warding off with the arm, such contact shall
be called a player-control foul.

I don't have time right now to look for the citations appropriate to this play under NFHS and NCAA but it seems to make sense that a player from Team A can't put an elbow into a player from Team B just because the Team B player hasn't established LGP.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Actually contact can matter if the defender doesn't have LGP. Even under the RA restrictions the offense can be called for a PC/charge in certain cases:

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I don't have time right now to look for the citations appropriate to this play under NFHS and NCAA but it seems to make sense that a player from Team A can't put an elbow into a player from Team B just because the Team B player hasn't established LGP.

The rule you cite is certainly valid, but doesn't really matter if it is the 2nd contact.

In THIS play, the defender first contacted the offensive player who then might have used his arm to push him a little. The main contact was when the defender came through/over the offensive player to get in a spot for the arm to be relevant but he was already going down due to the body contact. The arm is just a distraction. It may be the easiest thing to see, but it isn't the right call.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The rule you cite is certainly valid, but doesn't really matter if it is the 2nd contact.

This, obviously, would be where we differ. I see the intial contact as simultaneous with the second contact being the elbow.

If you have it as the defender making first contact that's cool but I don't think you ignore the elbow. It made, IMO, significant contact with the defender and put him to the floor. He probably got there a little faster because he was off balance but, again, I can't ignore the elbow flashing out to create space.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

This, obviously, would be where we differ. I see the intial contact as simultaneous with the second contact being the elbow.

If you have it as the defender making first contact that's cool but I don't think you ignore the elbow. It made, IMO, significant contact with the defender and put him to the floor. He probably got there a little faster because he was off balance but, again, I can't ignore the elbow flashing out to create space.

So what's your call? PC? DF? Block?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So what's your call? PC? DF? Block?

Foul on the offensive player. That was my first post early on

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

During a dead ball (which the first contact causes), it doesn't matter unless you're going to make it intentional. And if you don't decide to call the first contact as a foul, it would really not be fair to call the 2nd contact a foul.

I'll clarify: instead of simultaneous I should've said incidental regarding the first contact. My mistake there. At any rate, going back to my first post on this - the second after the video was put up - I said I would've been willing to let things go if I hadn't seen the elbow come up.

Also, why wouldn't it have been fair to call the second contact a foul? The offensive player shot out an elbow that made contact. It's hard to let that go, dead-ball contact or not.

Even if I had felt the defender commited a foul when the players first came together in the lane I would've had a tough time letting the elbow go unpunished.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

This, obviously, would be where we differ. I see the intial contact as simultaneous with the second contact being the elbow.

So, you're saying the elbow was 2nd to contact. So the initial contact makes the ball dead and the elbow doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

If you have it as the defender making first contact that's cool but I don't think you ignore the elbow. It made, IMO, significant contact with the defender and put him to the floor. He probably got there a little faster because he was off balance but, again, I can't ignore the elbow flashing out to create space.

During a dead ball (which the first contact causes), it doesn't matter unless you're going to make it intentional. And if you don't decide to call the first contact as a foul, it would really not be fair to call the 2nd contact a foul.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Simple physics. You basically had two bodies moving that came together.