False Double Foul?

[Toren]

So last night I had a varsity boys game, 2 man mechanics.

Player A1 gets the ball stolen by team B, I'm the L now the new T. As I'm running I have eyes and ears on A1 since he's been a bit vocal in this game. Sure enough I hear some cuss words directed at player B1. I signal for a T. As I do that, a shot is up in the air that misses. As the shot is in the air B1 moves in for a rebound and pushes A1 in the back, A1 turns around and pushes B1 back.

So I now have a T for unsporting behavior, followed by a dead ball double technical.

Now I ask myself a couple of things: first, if A1 wouldn't have retaliated with a push, I probably wouldn't have had anything on B1. The fact that A1 retaliated with a push, lead me to penalize both players with a double T? I certainly could not let the retaliation push go unpenalized, it was too egregious.

As I thought about it later, I needed to also penalize the push regardless, because it could have discounted the basket from scoring, had it scored. But then am I left with a T, common foul, T? as opposed to what we had, T, double T.

Secondly, after having player A1 removed from the game, we penalized with 2 free throws for team B because of the original T and the ball at half court opposite the table.

Thoughts on this play?

One last thing, if the ball in flight had gone in, if I had penalized with T, common foul, T, then the basket doesn't count, but we have 4 free throws plus the ball OOB? If I had penalized with T, double T, then the basket counts and we shoot 2 free throws plus the ball OOB?

Sorry for the long story.

[tref]

Nothing wrong with holding the whistle for the 1st T on the defensive player until the play ends.

Originally Posted by Toren

One last thing, if the ball in flight had gone in, if I had penalized with T, common foul, T, then the basket doesn't count...

No?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Toren

...As the shot is in the air B1 moves in for a rebound and pushes A1 in the back, A1 turns around and pushes B1 back.

... I needed to also penalize the push regardless, because it could have discounted the basket from scoring, had it scored. ....

If the ball is in flight the only thing that would discount a basket would be a violation against Team A (swinging elbows; unauthorized leaving of the court).

[Toren]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If the ball is in flight the only thing that would discount a basket would be a violation against Team A (swinging elbows; unauthorized leaving of the court).

I got myself confused with player control during flight of the ball. Damn it.

Well I guess that makes the way I adjudicated probably the best way. T then double T.

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If the ball is in flight the only thing that would discount a basket would be a violation against Team A (swinging elbows; unauthorized leaving of the court).

Or a pc on the shooter, reason why holding the whistle til the play ends makes sense.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by tref

Or a pc on the shooter, reason why holding the whistle til the play ends makes sense.

In this case though the foul is by Team A. Nevermind, the team designations are switched.

I still think an immediate whistle is appropriate here. Treating it like any other foul by Team B does not take away Team A's chance at a basket.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

Or a pc on the shooter, reason why holding the whistle til the play ends makes sense.

I had removed that from the equation based on his description of the play.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Welpe

In this case though the foul is by Team A. Nevermind, the team designations are switched.

I still think an immediate whistle is appropriate here. Treating it like any other foul by Team B does not take away Team A's chance at a basket.

Calling a technical foul on the defense while a shot is in flight or when a scoring opportunity is immenent makes us think a bit more about how to resume play.
Allowing the play to finish & then sticking the defense gives us less to think about.

What if Toren assessed the T on the defender just before the shooter began his habitual shooting motion on a 3? You know they generally release the shot anyway & of course, this time it goes in.
Wouldn't it had hurt the defense more if we allow the 3 to get off, now we can count the basket, stick knucklehead & give the offense 2 FTs plus the ball. Potential 8 point play as opposed to a potential 5 point play, just by being patient.

That's just my opinion. I believe there's a caseplay on witholding the whistle for Ts on the defense as well.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I had removed that from the equation based on his description of the play.

True, just wanted to make sure any newbies that read this will know the 2 violations (as you noted) & the type of foul that would cancel a try in flight.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by tref

What if Toren assessed the T on the defender just before the shooter began his habitual shooting motion on a 3?

That would be a different play from the one we're discussing.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

Or a pc on the shooter, reason why holding the whistle til the play ends makes sense.

AFAIC, he held the whistle just fine. He waited (inadvertently or not) until the shot was in the air. No need to hold any longer, there won't be a rebound.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

AFAIC, he held the whistle just fine. He waited (inadvertently or not) until the shot was in the air. No need to hold any longer, there won't be a rebound.

Okay my friend (same sitch minus the double fouls) although the try has ended & Toren cracked on the great T, A5 soars in, catches the miss right off the rim, cocks it & bangs it through... the "play" has not ended IMO.

I'm not trying to wipe that highlight play for a T that could be had after the entire play is complete. The only way to make sure we dont mess this play up is to practice holding our whistle when these situations present themselves. I understand how it could happen though, its not too common to have a T on the defense in transition witn a scoring opportunity

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

Okay my friend (same sitch minus the double fouls) although the try has ended & Toren cracked on the great T, A5 soars in, catches the miss right off the rim, cocks it & bangs it through... the "play" has not ended IMO.

I'm not trying to wipe that highlight play for a T that could be had after the entire play is complete. The only way to make sure we dont mess this play up is to practice holding our whistle when these situations present themselves. I understand how it could happen though, its not too common to have a T on the defense in transition witn a scoring opportunity

Well, I'm going off of the precedent of the injured player, where they say (in NFHS) to blow it dead when the shot is released.

Now, if in your case, I see A2 flying in from behind ready to grab a rebound, I'll hold another beat. But without an obvious imminent "highlight play", I'll kill it before A2 gets off the floor.

I'm just not that inclined to worry about highlight plays, but hey, I'm not doing state championship games yet, so when that happens....

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Toren

So last night I had a varsity boys game, 2 man mechanics.

Player A1 gets the ball stolen by team B, I'm the L now the new T. As I'm running I have eyes and ears on A1 since he's been a bit vocal in this game. Sure enough I hear some cuss words directed at player B1. I signal for a T. As I do that, a shot is up in the air that misses. As the shot is in the air B1 moves in for a rebound and pushes A1 in the back, A1 turns around and pushes B1 back.

So I now have a T for unsporting behavior, followed by a dead ball double technical.

Thoughts on this play?

Good situation. I see 5 possibilities...and the way you described it and administered it doesn't match any of them. You called it as if it were #4 but you described it as it were #1 or #2, or perhaps #3.

All start with a T for unsportsmanlike conduct on A1.

1. If the two shoves were approximately the same time and all action occurred before the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a personal foul.
• The shove back by A1 was also a personal foul.
• Same time makes it a double foul.
• Penalized the T....2 shots and the ball for B.

2. If the two shoves were NOT approximately the same time (B1 shoves then A1 gets back up and shoves back) and all action occurred before the try ended :

• The shove by B1 was a personal foul.
• The shove back by A1 was also a personal foul
• Not the same time makes it a false double foul.
• Penalize all fouls in the order of occurance. T, personal, personal.

3. If the two shoves were NOT approximately the same time (B1 shoves then A1 gets back up and shoves back) and all the last shove only was after the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a personal foul.
• The shove back by A1 was a technical foul
• Penalize all fouls in the order of occurance. T, personal, T.

4. If the two shoves were approximately the same time and both were after the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a technical foul.
• The shove back by A1 was a technical foul
• Same time makes it a double foul.
• Penalize the first T....2 shots and the ball to B.

5. If the two shoves were NOT approximately the same time (B1 shoves then A1 gets back up and shoves back) and both were after the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a technical foul.
• The shove back by A1 was a technical foul
• Not the same time makes it a false double foul.
• Penalize all fouls in the order of occurance. T, T, T.

The basket would count in any case.

A1 may or may not be DQ'd depending on which scenario really happened.

Whether the fouls were close enough in time to be considered "approximately" the same time is your judgment.

You could declare actions a fight making both actions flagrant and DQ both of them in any case.

[Toren]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Good situation. I see 5 possibilities...and the way you described it and administered it doesn't match any of them. You called it as if it were #4 but you described it as it were #1 or #2, or perhaps #3.

All start with a T for unsportsmanlike conduct on A1.

1. If the two shoves were approximately the same time and all action occurred before the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a personal foul.
• The shove back by A1 was also a personal foul.
• Same time makes it a double foul.
• Penalized the T....2 shots and the ball for B.

2. If the two shoves were NOT approximately the same time (B1 shoves then A1 gets back up and shoves back) and all action occurred before the try ended :

• The shove by B1 was a personal foul.
• The shove back by A1 was also a personal foul
• Not the same time makes it a false double foul.
• Penalize all fouls in the order of occurance. T, personal, personal.

3. If the two shoves were NOT approximately the same time (B1 shoves then A1 gets back up and shoves back) and all the last shove only was after the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a personal foul.
• The shove back by A1 was a technical foul
• Penalize all fouls in the order of occurance. T, personal, T.

4. If the two shoves were approximately the same time and both were after the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a technical foul.
• The shove back by A1 was a technical foul
• Same time makes it a double foul.
• Penalize the first T....2 shots and the ball to B.

5. If the two shoves were NOT approximately the same time (B1 shoves then A1 gets back up and shoves back) and both were after the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a technical foul.
• The shove back by A1 was a technical foul
• Not the same time makes it a false double foul.
• Penalize all fouls in the order of occurance. T, T, T.

The basket would count in any case.

A1 may or may not be DQ'd depending on which scenario really happened.

Whether the fouls were close enough in time to be considered "approximately" the same time, is your judgment.

You could declare actions a fight making both actions flagrant and DQ both of them in any case.

This was a very helpful breakdown. Thank you for taking the time.

Unsporting T.

Push in the back, while ball is in flight. Ball hits rim and clearly won't go in.
Then Player A1 retaliates and pushes back.

So it's #3. T, personal foul, T. So we should have shot 4 free throws plus the ball for Team B.

My thinking as I was talking to my partner, was upgrading the personal foul to a T because I felt the push might have been on purpose to get A1 to retaliate. In either case, I wanted to send a strong message to Team A and to Team B that this kind of non sense wasn't going to be tolerated. This is why we went with T, T, T. But we should have administered it 6 free throws, 2 for Team B, followed by two by Team A, followed by 2 for Team B and the ball OOB for Team B. Am I understanding it correctly?

Now that I think back on it though, I probably could have deemed it a fight and just DQ both players. That would have sent a much stronger message and much easier to administer

[Toren]

Now that I give it more thought, I'm realizing I'm trying to rewrite the book.

It happened like #3, so we needed to penalize like #3. I can't penalize #5 when it happened like #3.

Disregard my previous post.