False Double Foul?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Toren

So last night I had a varsity boys game, 2 man mechanics.

Player A1 gets the ball stolen by team B, I'm the L now the new T. As I'm running I have eyes and ears on A1 since he's been a bit vocal in this game. Sure enough I hear some cuss words directed at player B1. I signal for a T. As I do that, a shot is up in the air that misses. As the shot is in the air B1 moves in for a rebound and pushes A1 in the back, A1 turns around and pushes B1 back.

So I now have a T for unsporting behavior, followed by a dead ball double technical.

Thoughts on this play?

Good situation. I see 5 possibilities...and the way you described it and administered it doesn't match any of them. You called it as if it were #4 but you described it as it were #1 or #2, or perhaps #3.

All start with a T for unsportsmanlike conduct on A1.

1. If the two shoves were approximately the same time and all action occurred before the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a personal foul.
• The shove back by A1 was also a personal foul.
• Same time makes it a double foul.
• Penalized the T....2 shots and the ball for B.

2. If the two shoves were NOT approximately the same time (B1 shoves then A1 gets back up and shoves back) and all action occurred before the try ended :

• The shove by B1 was a personal foul.
• The shove back by A1 was also a personal foul
• Not the same time makes it a false double foul.
• Penalize all fouls in the order of occurance. T, personal, personal.

3. If the two shoves were NOT approximately the same time (B1 shoves then A1 gets back up and shoves back) and all the last shove only was after the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a personal foul.
• The shove back by A1 was a technical foul
• Penalize all fouls in the order of occurance. T, personal, T.

4. If the two shoves were approximately the same time and both were after the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a technical foul.
• The shove back by A1 was a technical foul
• Same time makes it a double foul.
• Penalize the first T....2 shots and the ball to B.

5. If the two shoves were NOT approximately the same time (B1 shoves then A1 gets back up and shoves back) and both were after the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a technical foul.
• The shove back by A1 was a technical foul
• Not the same time makes it a false double foul.
• Penalize all fouls in the order of occurance. T, T, T.

The basket would count in any case.

A1 may or may not be DQ'd depending on which scenario really happened.

Whether the fouls were close enough in time to be considered "approximately" the same time is your judgment.

You could declare actions a fight making both actions flagrant and DQ both of them in any case.

[Toren]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Good situation. I see 5 possibilities...and the way you described it and administered it doesn't match any of them. You called it as if it were #4 but you described it as it were #1 or #2, or perhaps #3.

All start with a T for unsportsmanlike conduct on A1.

1. If the two shoves were approximately the same time and all action occurred before the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a personal foul.
• The shove back by A1 was also a personal foul.
• Same time makes it a double foul.
• Penalized the T....2 shots and the ball for B.

2. If the two shoves were NOT approximately the same time (B1 shoves then A1 gets back up and shoves back) and all action occurred before the try ended :

• The shove by B1 was a personal foul.
• The shove back by A1 was also a personal foul
• Not the same time makes it a false double foul.
• Penalize all fouls in the order of occurance. T, personal, personal.

3. If the two shoves were NOT approximately the same time (B1 shoves then A1 gets back up and shoves back) and all the last shove only was after the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a personal foul.
• The shove back by A1 was a technical foul
• Penalize all fouls in the order of occurance. T, personal, T.

4. If the two shoves were approximately the same time and both were after the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a technical foul.
• The shove back by A1 was a technical foul
• Same time makes it a double foul.
• Penalize the first T....2 shots and the ball to B.

5. If the two shoves were NOT approximately the same time (B1 shoves then A1 gets back up and shoves back) and both were after the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a technical foul.
• The shove back by A1 was a technical foul
• Not the same time makes it a false double foul.
• Penalize all fouls in the order of occurance. T, T, T.

The basket would count in any case.

A1 may or may not be DQ'd depending on which scenario really happened.

Whether the fouls were close enough in time to be considered "approximately" the same time, is your judgment.

You could declare actions a fight making both actions flagrant and DQ both of them in any case.

This was a very helpful breakdown. Thank you for taking the time.

Unsporting T.

Push in the back, while ball is in flight. Ball hits rim and clearly won't go in.
Then Player A1 retaliates and pushes back.

So it's #3. T, personal foul, T. So we should have shot 4 free throws plus the ball for Team B.

My thinking as I was talking to my partner, was upgrading the personal foul to a T because I felt the push might have been on purpose to get A1 to retaliate. In either case, I wanted to send a strong message to Team A and to Team B that this kind of non sense wasn't going to be tolerated. This is why we went with T, T, T. But we should have administered it 6 free throws, 2 for Team B, followed by two by Team A, followed by 2 for Team B and the ball OOB for Team B. Am I understanding it correctly?

Now that I think back on it though, I probably could have deemed it a fight and just DQ both players. That would have sent a much stronger message and much easier to administer

[Toren]

Now that I give it more thought, I'm realizing I'm trying to rewrite the book.

It happened like #3, so we needed to penalize like #3. I can't penalize #5 when it happened like #3.

Disregard my previous post.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Toren

Now that I give it more thought, I'm realizing I'm trying to rewrite the book.

It happened like #3, so we needed to penalize like #3. I can't penalize #5 when it happened like #3.

Disregard my previous post.

And because you're going to end up tossing A1 with 2 T's when everything is sorted out, I'd probably call B1's personal foul an intentional foul....for no other reason than to send a message that B1's shove was also serious and would not be tolerated.

It will not change anything since A, if I'm reading correctly, was over 10 fouls. The same number of shots would be taken either way and B would still be getting the ball after the final T was penalized. Even if A were not over 10 fouls, I'd call it intentional and let A have the 2 shots.

Doing so would go a long way towards containing any escalation from either side.

[Toren]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And because you're going to end up tossing A1 with 2 T's when everything is sorted out, I'd probably call B1's personal foul an intentional foul....for no other reason than to send a message that B1's shove was also serious and would not be tolerated.

It will not change anything since A, if I'm reading correctly, was over 10 fouls. The same number of shots would be taken either way and B would still be getting the ball after the final T was penalized. Even if A were not over 10 fouls, I'd call it intentional and let A have the 2 shots.

Doing so would go a long way towards contain any escalation from either side.

Neither team was in the bonus. Now I'm wondering what I said to make you think that.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Toren

Neither team was in the bonus. Now I'm wondering what I said to make you think that.

I got it from the quote below but I may have read it incorrectly.....if you were speaking as if the middle foul were a T.

Originally Posted by Toren

My thinking as I was talking to my partner, was upgrading the personal foul to a T because I felt the push might have been on purpose to get A1 to retaliate. In either case, I wanted to send a strong message to Team A and to Team B that this kind of non sense wasn't going to be tolerated. This is why we went with T, T, T. But we should have administered it 6 free throws, 2 for Team B, followed by two by Team A, followed by 2 for Team B and the ball OOB for Team B. Am I understanding it correctly?

[Camron Rust]

Now, all that said, I THINK that the middle foul by B1 SHOULD be a T....not specifically by rule, but by common sense.

At its core, it really was an unsporting act in retaliation for an unsporting act. If the trigger was worthy of a T, the response should be no less. Regardless of the live/dead ball status' effect on contact fouls with regards to them being considered personal or technical, I think that fouls involving contact but in an unsporting manner should simply be T's.

So, in the end, I think the fact that you called 3 T's was not really "wrong".

If I were in a game with you, and that is what you wanted to do, I wouldn't resist it.

[dsqrddgd909]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Good situation. I see 5 possibilities...and the way you described it and administered it doesn't match any of them. You called it as if it were #4 but you described it as it were #1 or #2, or perhaps #3.

All start with a T for unsportsmanlike conduct on A1.

1. If the two shoves were approximately the same time and all action occurred before the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a personal foul.
• The shove back by A1 was also a personal foul.
• Same time makes it a double foul.
• Penalized the T....2 shots and the ball for B.

2. If the two shoves were NOT approximately the same time (B1 shoves then A1 gets back up and shoves back) and all action occurred before the try ended :

• The shove by B1 was a personal foul.
• The shove back by A1 was also a personal foul
• Not the same time makes it a false double foul.
• Penalize all fouls in the order of occurance. T, personal, personal.

3. If the two shoves were NOT approximately the same time (B1 shoves then A1 gets back up and shoves back) and all the last shove only was after the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a personal foul.
• The shove back by A1 was a technical foul
• Penalize all fouls in the order of occurance. T, personal, T.

4. If the two shoves were approximately the same time and both were after the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a technical foul.
• The shove back by A1 was a technical foul
• Same time makes it a double foul.
• Penalize the first T....2 shots and the ball to B.

5. If the two shoves were NOT approximately the same time (B1 shoves then A1 gets back up and shoves back) and both were after the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a technical foul.
• The shove back by A1 was a technical foul
• Not the same time makes it a false double foul.
• Penalize all fouls in the order of occurance. T, T, T.

The basket would count in any case.

A1 may or may not be DQ'd depending on which scenario really happened.

Whether the fouls were close enough in time to be considered "approximately" the same time is your judgment.

You could declare actions a fight making both actions flagrant and DQ both of them in any case.

Wow, +1. Now I have to do 2 things. Re-read (and this time truly understand) rule 4 and pray I don't get this situation until I do.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

Wow, +1. Now I have to do 2 things. Re-read (and this time truly understand) rule 4 and pray I don't get this situation until I do.

Some people find it easier to go on principles rather than enumerated lists of possibilities....I do....and it is a lot easier to learn basic principles than to memorize a million variations of case plays. Yet, some people (not you) insist on a case play for every possibility.

Basic principles...

• the ball remains live until the try ends (made or missed) when a foul other than player control foul occurs after the release (or a defensive foul occurs after the shooting motion begins).
• contact fouls during a live ball are personal fouls.
• contact fouls during a dead ball are (generally) technical fouls.
• a double foul happens at approximately the same time
• double fouls effectively offset (but are still recorded as if they were individual fouls).

That is all you need to know to resolve all of the above scenarios.