Correctable Error question

[coach-rec]

Hello everyone! It's been a while but I came across a situation that made me think of you guys as I felt someone here would know the right answer.

Was watching an AAU game recently where team A is up two points and Team B has the ball. With about 30 seconds to go team B player steps back and hits a shot. Ref A signals 3 and ref B signals 2. The clock only saw ref B so put two points on the board. The coach for team A played the scoreboard and played for the last shot. They missed and team B shot a prayer as time expired with 55-55 on the board.

Team B's coach goes up to Ref A and points out that he signaled a 3. Ref A agrees without consulting Ref B and they put a point on the board to give team B the win.

There was no stoppage of play until the final buzzer as I've been able to find items referring to a timeframe for correctable errors but only as it relates to a stoppage of play.

I had no horse in the game and was watching as the winner played the team I was rooting for the next day in the championship.

Thanks for any replies.

[Adam]

How did he signal the two? Which where was the shot taken and where were the refs?

[grunewar]

As I read this post and Case Book 2-10.1, Situation L, the error is that of the scorer and can be changed by the official "any time until the final score has been approved." Award the point. Game over - sorry coach A.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

How did he signal the two?

In most situations, I usually signal a two by not signaling a three.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by coach-rec

Ref A signals 3 and ref B signals 2.

Once the officials decide, this "mistake" can be corrected at any time until both of them leave the visual confines of the court.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by coach-rec

Ref A signals 3 and ref B signals 2.

I believe that if neither signaled a three, then it becomes a correctable error, and a correctable error time frame, for the officials to correct.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Once the officials decide, this "mistake" can be corrected at any time until both of them leave the visual confines of the court.

If one official actually signaled for two points, then it's a CE with the associated time restriction. This is a conundrum, IMO.

Now, in this particular play, it doesn't matter. CE time frame never expires.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

This is a conundrum . . .

A) Does Casebook 2.10.1L speak to this point?:
"A1 attempts a goal from behind the three-point line: (a) but the covering official fails to give the successful signal after the ball goes through the basket, and the scorer records only two points; or (b) and the covering official gives the successful signal, but the scorer records only two points. Team B inbounds the ball and proceeds to score. The coach of Team A goes to the table and requests a 60-second time-out to discuss the error. RULING: In (a), the error of not awarding three points is correctible as it was detected prior to the second live ball after the error. The extra point is scored, the 60-second timeout is not charged and the game continues from the point of interruption. In (b), it is a mistake by the scorer which can be corrected any time until the final score has been approved."

B) What were four eyes doing on the ball?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Freddy

A) Does Casebook 2.10.1L speak to this point?:
"A1 attempts a goal from behind the three-point line: (a) but the covering official fails to give the successful signal after the ball goes through the basket, and the scorer records only two points; or (b) and the covering official gives the successful signal, but the scorer records only two points. Team B inbounds the ball and proceeds to score. The coach of Team A goes to the table and requests a 60-second time-out to discuss the error. RULING: In (a), the error of not awarding three points is correctible as it was detected prior to the second live ball after the error. The extra point is scored, the 60-second timeout is not charged and the game continues from the point of interruption. In (b), it is a mistake by the scorer which can be corrected any time until the final score has been approved."

B) What were four eyes doing on the ball?

A) Assuming the official didn't actually "signal" for two, but instead did nothing, you're right. But if he did, we have two conflicting signals would would mean different answers for whether this is a CE or not.

B) Not uncommon, depending on where the shot is taken. FT extended on L's side, both officials need to see this. That said, apparently they both weren't on the ball, as one got it wrong.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

B) Not uncommon, depending on where the shot is taken. FT extended on L's side, both officials need to see this . . .

Why I'm somewhat sensitive to this topic, though Snaq's point might be different, largely due to two different partners I had this year.
One, as lead, would signal "Two" on every -- every! not just in what some might call the grey area where the two PCA's intersect -- shot around the arc that he, from his position on the endline, determined was not a three. Every. That was the first half. In spite of a tactful halftime chat about primary coverage area around the arc, the second half featured the same.
The other -- and this was in a post-season state tournament first-round game -- a partner in pre-game was surprized to learn that C didn't mirror T's three-point attempt, and vice-versa. "But I always do that." After this particular pregame, he didn't anymore. At least for that game.
Worked hard this year so that crews avoided what I call "The Fuzzy 3/5", i.e., when two arms go in the air on 3 point attempts and initiating 5 second counts. Not knowing when to turn off-ball results in a Fuzzy 3/5 where awareness of PCA boundaries are vague, unclear, not known, ignored, or otherwise "fuzzy," and off-ball coverage suffers. This condition seems indicative of ball-watching instead of surveilling PCA for off-ball activity.
My take on it.

[coach-rec]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

How did he signal the two? Which where was the shot taken and where were the refs?

To be honest I cannot answer this. When I saw the shot I thought ohhh that's a 3 and they just took the lead and looked to the clock and scoreboard. I noticed only two went on the board so figured his foot had been on the line as the step back was from two range and he was close to the line.

Have a few follow-up questions...

Is there a link to Case Book 2-10.1, Situation L? I cannot find it in a quick search.

Is the correctable error timeframe to the next stoppage of play in every situation?

Thanks for the responses. I figured it was the right call. Only thing I can honestly say I would have preferred to see was ref A discuss it with ref B before making a call. Unless it was his call, he knew that and could overrule it but I didn't really care to look into it that far to understand.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by coach-rec

To be honest I cannot answer this. When I saw the shot I thought ohhh that's a 3 and they just took the lead and looked to the clock and scoreboard. I noticed only two went on the board so figured his foot had been on the line as the step back was from two range and he was close to the line.

Have a few follow-up questions...

Is there a link to Case Book 2-10.1, Situation L? I cannot find it in a quick search.

Is the correctable error timeframe to the next stoppage of play in every situation?

Thanks for the responses. I figured it was the right call. Only thing I can honestly say I would have preferred to see was ref A discuss it with ref B before making a call. Unless it was his call, he knew that and could overrule it but I didn't really care to look into it that far to understand.

There is no overruling, period. And if ref A was the primary official on that play, and he clearly saw the three, there's no need to discuss it with the other official. I promise you it got discussed after the game. Honestly, though, I'm not making a game-changing call like this without at least discussing it with my partner.

As for the time frame. A CE for a mis-scored 3 pt basket can be fixed until the ball becomes live following the second dead ball. The made basket that was scored wrongly is the first dead ball. In this case, the second dead ball was the end of the game, so the CE time limit never expired.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Worked hard this year so that crews avoided what I call "The Fuzzy 3/5", i.e., when two arms go in the air on 3 point attempts and initiating 5 second counts. Not knowing when to turn off-ball results in a Fuzzy 3/5 where awareness of PCA boundaries are vague, unclear, not known, ignored, or otherwise "fuzzy," and off-ball coverage suffers. This condition seems indicative of ball-watching instead of surveilling PCA for off-ball activity.
My take on it.

This was also something I worked on this year. I worked so many two-whistle games, though, that for some reason I had a bigger issue with starting a BC count from C than a five-count on a play not in my primary. Half a dozen times I got to two before I realized what I was doing.

As for marking threes, I don't mark them out of my primary even if I had a chance to peek; unless my partner doesn't.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by coach-rec

Is there a link to Case Book 2-10.1, Situation L? I cannot find it in a quick search.

https://nfhs.arbitersports.com/front...e-853358048509

Is the correctable error timeframe to the next stoppage of play in every situation?

Remember, a stoppage in play has nothing to do with this. Since the CE took place while the clock was running and the ball was dead - i.e., after the goal was scored - it has to be recognized before the second live ball. Since no one scored again and there weren't any violations, fouls or time outs there was never another dead ball.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

. . . if I had a chance to peak; unless my partner doesn't.

Snaqs, you're not even close to peaking yet. Heck, you're just getting started!
(Some partners you work with might have...)