Question about correctable error

[Damian]

With time running out, Team B is down by 3 points. I am the lead. A player from Team B shoots from a place real close to the 3 point line in the Trails zone. The basket goes in. I make eye contact with my partner as he has not signaled anything and he start running down the floor as the new lead. The scorekeeper looks at me with a question mark on his face. I give him a low two finger sign to indicate two points.

Also Team B saw my signal and tried to gain my attention (OK, they were a little assertive). I told their captain that this is a judgement call and coundn't be questioned.

Team A thinking they are about to win the game has taken the ball in bounds and have started down the court to kill the last 5 seconds of the game.

When my partner sees this, he realizes that he didn't make the proper 3 point signal and calls an officials timeout even though the ball is live in the control of team A.

He said he just didn't signal correctly and that it should have been a 3 point basket. Team A didn't like that call because they saw my signal and also heard me say it was a judgement call.

I sold Team A's captain that this was a correctable error and that in the end the right call was made. Then I asked my partner to look up correctable errors in the rule book.

My main problem with all of this was the time out. In seems like it was the right thing to do since it effected the method of play for Team A in the last 5 seconds of the game. Instead of killing the ball for the win, then having an overtime game, they came down the court and scored and won.

I would like your comments on this.

BTW. My partner has just completed his first year and has done outstanding work. He has come a long way and I really enjoy calling with him.

[APHP]

Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set aside and results in::"Erroneously counting or cancelling a score." If the error is made with the clock running and the ball dead, it must be recognized by an official before the second live ball.

[mick]

Originally posted by Damian
The scorekeeper looks at me with a question mark on his face. I give him a low two finger sign to indicate two points.

Damian,
If you saw the shot was a "Two", then it is fine to signal the "Two".
If you did not see whether the shot was "Two" or "Three" then don't signal.
mick

[cmathews]

Damian,
I agree with all that is said above. I am not sure however that this is really erroneously cancelling a score. This to me falls more under the guise of the official score can be corrected any time until the final acceptance of the score 2-11-11. It would be a grey area in my mind as if it is actually a correctable error or the other situation I mentioned. In either case I think the stopping the play and correcting the situation at the time was appropriate and correct. In either case correctable or the correct the score at any time, the right thing was done in correcting the 2 to a 3...

[Damian]

My signal was in response to the questioned look on the scorekeepers face and that my partner had not signaled even when I made eye contact with him. So, my guess (incorrectly) was that he intended it to be a 2 point call. Had I not done this, my partner would not have recognized the mistake. So, you are correct that I should not have made any signal. But, it did result in solving the problem.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Damian
My signal was in response to the questioned look on the scorekeepers face and that my partner had not signaled even when I made eye contact with him. So, my guess (incorrectly) was that he intended it to be a 2 point call. Had I not done this, my partner would not have recognized the mistake. So, you are correct that I should not have made any signal. But, it did result in solving the problem.

Check out casebook play2.10.1SitF(a).It's almost the same as your situation. Note that language says that "the covering official" did not give the proper signal. Your partner was the covering official,not you,so this case play is germane.It goes on to say that this is a correctable error.

Sounds like you guys handled it by the book. Good job!

[cmathews]

JR thanks for the reference...I now agree completely that it is a Corrctable error, not the can be corrected score situation.....and I agree good job guys.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by cmathews
Damian,
I agree with all that is said above. I am not sure however that this is really erroneously cancelling a score. This to me falls more under the guise of the official score can be corrected any time until the final acceptance of the score 2-11-11. It would be a grey area in my mind as if it is actually a correctable error or the other situation I mentioned. In either case I think the stopping the play and correcting the situation at the time was appropriate and correct. In either case correctable or the correct the score at any time, the right thing was done in correcting the 2 to a 3...

Again,see casebook play 2.10.1SitF. It is not a scorer's mistake in this case because he did get a signal(even though the signal was wrong).It's a correctible error,and falls under that rule's time restraints.

[Mlancaster]

Absolutely the right thing to do is exactly what you did.....Except for the 2 point signal.

I for one do not like to use a 2-point signal. If questioned, my response is that if the shot was a "3", it would have been signaled as such.

I'm glad your partner realized his error before it was too late.

[devdog69]

I don't like calling it a 'correctable error' because this is a scoring mistake that could be corrected at any time, unlike the 'correctable error' that must be caught in time. I think you handled it wonderfully, I just didn't like the terminology. I also don't like the official with the 'if it was a three I would have signalled approach', not cool.

[cmathews]

devdog,
While originally I agreed 100% with your opinion....check out the case play cited by JR..it is verbatum and calls this a correctable error, if the score is wrong in the book it is what you and I are talking about, if it isn't signalled it is considered a failure count a score...

[devdog69]

Originally posted by cmathews
devdog,
While originally I agreed 100% with your opinion....check out the case play cited by JR..it is verbatum and calls this a correctable error, if the score is wrong in the book it is what you and I are talking about, if it isn't signalled it is considered a failure count a score...

Ok, even though it is Friday at 5:00 and I have other things to be drin..er doing I looked and I see that per NFHS rules this is a correctable error which can only be corrected in the appropriate time period. The NCAA book is less precise or at least I don't find where it fits under their correctable error rule. I am still going to correct this 'scoring mistake' (my definition) anytime I discover it, until my supervisors tell me otherwise, just common sense, imo.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by devdog69
[/B]

I am still going to correct this 'scoring mistake' (my definition) anytime I discover it, until my supervisors tell me otherwise, just common sense, imo.
[/B][/QUOTE]Devon,if you read the play above again,I'll bet that you can't find any place where the SCORER made an error.The official made the error by not giving the proper signal for the 3. By rule,if we don't signal a 3,the scorer is supposed to record the basket as a 2. That's why this play gets labelled under the "official's error" section(R2-10-1), and not under the "scorer's error' section(R2-11-11)-and thus has to be corrected in a timely fashion. Make sense? The casebook play that I cited points that out also.

PS-End of the week.Enjoy that brownpop(or whatever).

[Back In The Saddle]

Although it may initially seem like common sense to correct this "scoring mistake" at any time, I think that it really is more common sense to leave it alone if you haven't corrected it in a timely manner.

Say you forget to count a 3, and 10 mins later you realize it and stop the game to correct it. What happens? The other team feels like they just got gyped for a point. The team that gets the point begins wondering what else you've been missing. The fans think you're out to lunch. And your partner(s) think you're not on top of things and wonder if they need to keep an eye on you.

Nah, correct it in a timely manner (per the rule) or let it go.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by Mlancaster
I for one do not like to use a 2-point signal. If questioned, my response is that if the shot was a "3", it would have been signaled as such.

I agree. This is a great team-building technique. Whenever possible you should respond to your partners (on the floor or at the score bench) by snottily reasuring them that if you didn't signal something, it didn't happen. It builds a tremendous sense of confidence on their part to know that you'll never miss anything and they needn't question you about any situation, no matter how ambiguous or doubtful. It rewards what little initiative they might show in asking seemingly legitimate questions with a warm feeling to know that you're willing to educate them in such a fashion. In fact, you might want to use this technique as part of your pre-game conference to assure your partners that they needn't communicate with you on any point whatsoever. It certainly saves time and allows everyone to focus more on their primary responsibility. Yep, I intend to use this technique more!