Incorrect travel

[tref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

tref,
I hope that you take my comments in the spirit of discussion and offering some advice from a colleague who has been able to reach particular levels that you have just noted. (Thanks for your congrats, btw.)

I do think that there is a fine line between "leading a crew"/"running a game" and being overbearing with your partners/doing too much observing outside of your area. You are pushing the envelope in my opinion. Hopefully, my previous posts convey the strength of my thoughts on this, without coming off as belligerent.

I would counsel you to reflect upon possible other ways of thinking and handling such situations. There really isn't one answer to most of this. Officiating is about many things (people management, teamwork, professionalism) and "getting calls right" is only a part of that.

I hear you & appreciate all the input from everyone! Yeah, I listen to all & really try to take away things from peers especially top tier officials.
But for the record, I achieved the same a couple years ago. So I must be doing something right...
I agree that it takes more than merely blowing a whistle to be considered an exceptional official, BUT... getting plays right is first & foremost. Wouldn't you agree?

[tref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

So...you are going to use Grandma's advice when the crowd boos and moans, but not when a group of officials are on one accord? Interesting.

No... but I'd like to think I'm experienced enough to tell the difference between "boo he called a foul on us" & "boo WTf is that"
I'm hoping you do too

Originally Posted by tomegun

Do you always make decisions or form an opinion based on what everybody else in the gym saw? Using your thinking everybody in the gym should have a whistle since what they see is the correct ruling on plays. Right?

See above. I know, some people are born with it, others learn it, but there are many signs that just jump out at ya when something just aint right.

Originally Posted by tomegun

When read after everything else in this thread, I think this sounds kind of arrogant. Did you let him go use the bathroom at halftime?

No, but I did share with him how he could position adjust to get the A look on that particular play. I also shared with him how we shouldn't call travels based solely on the movement of feet
And when I completed that convo he was very open & thankful for the insight.

Originally Posted by tomegun

You may have did something right to get that championship, but if you have been perfect since then you should quit right now.

Nope wasnt perfect then & far from it now but I'm better than I was in '10.
Always striving for perfection but I'll settle for excellence.

Originally Posted by tomegun

I think you should have called travel in your first play. Some things should just be called. Keep things simple and this whole situation wouldn't have happened. Now, you could have been surprised and simply missed the jump ball.

How can one travel without HOLDING A LIVE BALL INBOUNDS. I think you should re-read the 1st play then holla back.

Originally Posted by tomegun

In the third play, you didn't answer a question from before: who was watching the other 7 players? Some things you shouldn't see. The fact that you see all of these plays makes me think you may be a ball watcher.

3rd repost:

Originally Posted by tref

Pressing transition situation remember? Sorry but I dont stand on the endline in ther f/c while all 10 players & my partners are in the backcourt. By the time the offense achieved f/c status I still was not on the endline as no players were below the 3 point line.

This play was on the opposite sideline & opened up to tableside. The entire bench & grandma in the 19th row could see the defenders hand on the inside of the ball pulling the offense forward into a travel. Instead of the T position adjusting by stepping up & onto the court he got stuck in the mud & called a travel.
Tea would definitely had to have been served up if WE didnt get this play right. And I hate whacking on top of incorrect calls!!!

Cant find the other post that says the T left 3 players 1 defender & 2 offensive players in the b/c. That’s what I was originally looking in that direction for & just happened to get luck & catch the held ball.
Reading is FUNdamental

Originally Posted by tomegun

Advancing doesn't always mean an official is the best official. Assignors do not know everything and sometimes choose championship officials based on social factors. Not saying that applies to you, but to simply say you have worked championships doesn't mean...

That's your opinion, you sir or anyone else are not gonna take that away from me. I got it because I earned it & in year 4 at that. I know that makes people sick but oh phuckin well... I plan on getting more too!

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by tref

No... but I'd like to think I'm experienced enough to tell the difference between "boo he called a foul on us" & "boo WTf is that"
I'm hoping you do too



See above. I know, some people are born with it, others learn it, but there are many signs that just jump out at ya when something just aint right.



No, but I did share with him how he could position adjust to get the A look on that particular play. I also shared with him how we shouldn't call travels based solely on the movement of feet
And when I completed that convo he was very open & thankful for the insight.



Nope wasnt perfect then & far from it now but I'm better than I was in '10.
Always striving for perfection but I'll settle for excellence.



How can one travel without HOLDING A LIVE BALL INBOUNDS. I think you should re-read the 1st play then holla back.



3rd repost:


Cant find the other post that says the T left 3 players 1 defender & 2 offensive players in the b/c. That’s what I was originally looking in that direction for & just happened to get luck & catch the held ball.
Reading is FUNdamental



That's your opinion, you sir or anyone else are not gonna take that away from me. I got it because I earned it & in year 4 at that. I know that makes people sick but oh phuckin well... I plan on getting more too!

Where is Jurassic when we need him!

[tref]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Where is Jurassic when we need him!

Be a man & do it yourself!
Dont be a U2 looking for an R to do your dirty work...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Where is Jurassic when we need him!

You're assuming we need him.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

...
That's your opinion, you sir or anyone else are not gonna take that away from me. I got it because I earned it & in year 4 at that. I know that makes people sick but oh phuckin well... I plan on getting more too!

Which people is that?

tref, I'm quite sure on the court you and I are very similar in how we call and see plays and what deem is or isn't important in managing a game. And off the court I'm pretty confident you and I probably are a lot alike also.

But when it comes to discussing officiating, you exude complete arrogance. You talk as if every time you learn something new and latch on to it that you are Moses returning from the mountain with a new commandment for the masses to adhere to. And if we question it or disagreed with its validity then there is something wrong with us and we'll be stuck building pyramids for the rest of our existence. Nevermind that we might have heard these "commandants" before or that they are just re-packaged "commandments" with the words moved around or they may not apply to how we are expected to officiate in our venues.

There is more than one way to get to the top. People have risen faster than you without the teachings you have received and people have faltered while receiving the exact same teachings that you receive.

[tref]

BNR & rocky, you guys are right!
I'll make the necessary adjustments effective immediately.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Which people is that?

tref, I'm quite sure on the court you and I are very similar in how we call and see plays and what deem is or isn't important in managing a game. And off the court I'm pretty confident you and I probably are a lot alike also.

But when it comes to discussing officiating, you exude complete arrogance. You talk as if every time you learn something new and latch on to it that you are Moses returning from the mountain with a new commandment for the masses to adhere to. And if we question it or disagreed with its validity then there is something wrong with us and we'll be stuck building pyramids for the rest of our existence. Nevermind that we might have heard these "commandants" before or that they are just re-packaged "commandments" with the words moved around or they may not apply to how we are expected to officiate in our venues.

Yeah, THAT...

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by tref

And when I completed that convo he was very open & thankful for the insight.

Editor's note - what is really meant by this sentence is: "And when I completed that convo, instead of rolling his eyes, he pretended to be interested and thankful. He realized he was working with "that guy", and decided to just get through it.

I worked with you a couple of weeks ago. Not YOU you... but you nonetheless. Every association has a "you". Every call on the field/court/gridiron is YOURS - the rest of your crew are just there to assist you and learn from your insight. The worst part is that "you" always leave a game thinking that you've taught your underlings and they thank their lucky stars they've had the opportunity, not realizing that they are leaving the game thinking, "Man, what a tool. I must ask my assignor not to put me with that guy again."

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Same question for #1 and #2. Who made the call (T, L, C) and who had the great look (T, L, C)?

For #3 I don't see how T can have ALL backs and butts and how the Lead can see play so clearly and easily. Definitely would leave #3 alone.

L goes against the pregame & calls the above the rim play a travel. I was T & told him what I & just about everybody else in the gym saw.

I described #3 clearly a couple times already. No players in the f/c on this pressing transitions situation... what am I to do stand 94' away & wait for em to head my way? OR go find the next matchup?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

L goes against the pregame & calls the above the rim play a travel. I was T & told him what I & just about everybody else in the gym saw.

I described #3 clearly a couple times already. No players in the f/c on this pressing transitions situation... what am I to do stand 94' away & wait for em to head my way? OR go find the next matchup?

Well, in #1 if you are the T and have the ball going to the hole you should have been on top of the play and called a held ball before the L's whistle.

For #2 you still haven't explained where you were and where the calling official was. But it's possible it was just poor judgment by the calling official or it's possible there was a travel and you misread the play.

For #3, don't remember seeing a clear description until after I asked, my bad if you were clear before my post. Don't remember anybody saying to be 94' away. I know I always help on the press. As described you should have been stronger in officiating your secondary since you recognized the C was out of position and you should have came in strong with a held ball call before the C had a whistle on the play.

In fact I still don't see a clear description of #3 since you originally say you were L and T missed the call then later say you were across the court and had a clear view.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

L goes against the pregame & calls the above the rim play a travel...

Maybe the T went against pre-game and didn't make the held ball call that should have been made so the L judges that A1 voluntarily let the ball drop after being capped?

You said B1 capped the ball. You say the play was up high (above the rim plays). What were you waiting on to determine whether or not is was a held ball?

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by tref

L goes against the pregame & calls the above the rim play a travel. I was T & told him what I & just about everybody else in the gym saw.

Do you always make decisions or form an opinion based on what everybody else in the gym saw? Using your thinking everybody in the gym should have a whistle since what they see is the correct ruling on plays. Right?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tref

1. A1 jumps to attempt a layup, B1 caps the ball up high. The ball comes loose while both players are in the air, on the way down A1 regains control of the ball, then lands. The official calls travelling. Coach & fans go nutz & you have a great look.

2. A1 drives to the basket, gathers the ball then bobbles it & completes the layup. Official calls travel on the team that is up by 15+ & nobody says boo, but you have a great look.

3. A1 trapped by B1 & B2 just beyond the timeline in a pressing transition situation, the T has backs & butts. From L you clearly see B1 has a hand firmly on the ball. A1 moves his feet beyond the prescribed limits as B1 still has the ball. The T calls travel. Coach & fans go nutz & you have a great look.

In which of these win or go home game situations do you provide information to the calling official?

1. Where is the official who calls a travel? Where are you?
If you are primary, you should have a whistle. Then it's easy to come together and discuss on the double-whistle.
There are some situations in which the secondary official can create a double-whistle purposely just to allow for help with a play and there are other situations in which it just isn't a possibility.

2. Stay out of this one. It isn't technically correct, but so many people call this a violation that the coaches and players accept it. Just let your partner live and die with his decision.

3. Definitely stay out of this one. The player with the ball is not airborne as required for one part of the held ball rule, and the other part about undue roughness is a judgment call. This could be a travel BY RULE. Just because an opponent placed a hand on the ball doesn't mean that it is a held ball. Let your partner officiate the play.