Incorrect travel

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

...Thanks for your input all, but I'm done with this, I gotta game to prepare for

Don't go yet. Msg #29 needs an answer.

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Didn't you say you pregamed for the Lead to lay off above-the-rim plays? If so the play in #1 is not the Lead's call to make, it was yours. So which are we supposed to be going by in judging this play? Go by whose PCA it was or go by what was established in your pre-game?

L lay off above the rim play & T be patient on your whistle. I held up my end, he didnt...
On blocked shots, I prefer to give myself a chance to see it clearly before whistling it.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And again with #3. You say you saw that the official was straight-lined and you say you clearly saw a held ball. Why are you waiting?

When calling out of my primary I follow the 3 Bs. Be late being #1, gotta give the covering official an opportunity to make the call. If you pop outside your primary immediately, thats a sign of not trusting your partner in my opinion.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

L lay off above the rim play & T be patient on your whistle. i held up my end, he didnt...



When calling out of my primary I follow the 3 Bs. Be late being #1, gotta give the covering official an opportunity to make the call. Thats a sign of not trusting your partner in my opinion.

I see you ignoring my specific questions and just repeating the mantras.

A1 leaves the floor with ball, A1 returns to floor with ball. How long is Lead supposed to wait to see if his partner has a whistle before he whistles A1 for travelling?

Play #3. B1 causes held ball and it is obvious that responsible official cannot not see the held ball. If you're right with your call who is going to complain that you weren't late enough? You're explanation to the supervisor/observor that you saw your partner was straight-lined should suffice as a reason to come in with a whistle. You're looking over there for a reason, right, to help your partner since nothing is going on in your primary.

Patient late whistles don't apply to every single call. It's great when a player goes to the hole, gets smack on the elbow, the primary official doesn't get it. But what does a late whistle serve on a clear held ball?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tref

Ummm okay, so you dont run the ballgames that are given you? Providing info is FAR from over-ruling, get a grip!
You should still be on a high from your C'Ship! Congrats again btw.

tref,
I hope that you take my comments in the spirit of discussion and offering some advice from a colleague who has been able to reach particular levels that you have just noted. (Thanks for your congrats, btw.)

I do think that there is a fine line between "leading a crew"/"running a game" and being overbearing with your partners/doing too much observing outside of your area. You are pushing the envelope in my opinion. Hopefully, my previous posts convey the strength of my thoughts on this, without coming off as belligerent.

I would counsel you to reflect upon possible other ways of thinking and handling such situations. There really isn't one answer to most of this. Officiating is about many things (people management, teamwork, professionalism) and "getting calls right" is only a part of that.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by tref

1989 mind-set

PCA means PRIMARY COVERAGE AREA not EXCLUSIVE COVERAGE AREA & if its your PRIMARY its probably someone elses SECONDARY.

TRUST YOUR PARTNERS but help em out when they are staightlined, when they dont position adjust, when they're looking where they shouldn't be & get the damn play right!

Nobody is losing by 1 point in my games because of the IC plays I described.
Talking about it after the game may help the official (who doesnt belong on the court this time of year if they dont know those basics) but it doesnt do justice to the GAME or the participants involved in the 1 point loss.

Tref:

1989 mind set!! Listen up whippersnapper! I have forgotten more about basketball officiating and still know more than you do about basketball officiating. You do not know the first thing about basketball officiating. You don't know difference between officiating your PCA and officiating Off Ball outside of your PCA. If you and I were on the same officiating crew and you tried to pull that horse manure with me, I would rip you a new tuchus at halftime.

MTD, Sr.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by tref

This play was on the opposite sideline & opened up to tableside. The entire bench & grandma in the 19th row could see the defenders hand on the inside of the ball pulling the offense forward into a travel.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Perhaps we need to discuss the held ball rule. From what I just read, this is a good defensive play and a travel is the correct call. Merely placing a hand on the ball when the player isn't airborne does NOT equate to a held ball BY RULE.

I disagree. If the pull is sufficient to move the opponent, that is enough for a held ball.

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I see you ignoring my specific questions and just repeating the mantras.

A1 leaves the floor with ball, A1 returns to floor with ball. How long is Lead supposed to wait to see if his partner has a whistle before he whistles A1 for travelling?

Play #3. B1 causes held ball and it is obvious that responsible official cannot not see the held ball. If you're right with your call who is going to complain that you weren't late enough? You're explanation to the supervisor/observor that you saw your partner was straight-lined should suffice as a reason to come in with a whistle. You're looking over there for a reason, right, to help your partner since nothing is going on in your primary.

Patient late whistles don't apply to every single call. It's great when a player goes to the hole, gets smack on the elbow, the primary official doesn't get it. But what does a late whistle serve on a clear held ball?

Negative sir.
A1 left the floor with the ball, it got capped up top for a second & then came a loose, A1 regained control of the ball then landed. I was passing on a held ball since it was so brief & eventually came a loose anyway. Thought it was a good play on, definitely not a travel by rule.
To answer your question he should've seen the ball come loose & known it was not a travel.

In #3 I was waiting for him to move to improve & I simply allowed him to referee his play.
Honestly I thought this was a great call for the C but since he's of the old school he probably was letting the T live & die with his incorrect call.
Again, I trust my partners until they give me reason not to...
I'm sure I could've found an off ball competitive matchup but since the T left 3 players in the b/c AGAIN, I just happened to catch the held ball as I was watching them.
Hope this answers your questions!

[tref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

tref,
I hope that you take my comments in the spirit of discussion and offering some advice from a colleague who has been able to reach particular levels that you have just noted. (Thanks for your congrats, btw.)

I do think that there is a fine line between "leading a crew"/"running a game" and being overbearing with your partners/doing too much observing outside of your area. You are pushing the envelope in my opinion. Hopefully, my previous posts convey the strength of my thoughts on this, without coming off as belligerent.

I would counsel you to reflect upon possible other ways of thinking and handling such situations. There really isn't one answer to most of this. Officiating is about many things (people management, teamwork, professionalism) and "getting calls right" is only a part of that.

I hear you & appreciate all the input from everyone! Yeah, I listen to all & really try to take away things from peers especially top tier officials.
But for the record, I achieved the same a couple years ago. So I must be doing something right...
I agree that it takes more than merely blowing a whistle to be considered an exceptional official, BUT... getting plays right is first & foremost. Wouldn't you agree?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Tref:

1989 mind set!! Listen up whippersnapper! I have forgotten more about basketball officiating and still know more than you do about basketball officiating.

MTD, Sr. ftw.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Tref:

1989 mind set!! Listen up whippersnapper! I have forgotten more about basketball officiating and still know more than you do about basketball officiating. You do not know the first thing about basketball officiating. You don't know difference between officiating your PCA and officiating Off Ball outside of your PCA. If you and I were on the same officiating crew and you tried to pull that horse manure with me, I would rip you a new tuchus at halftime.

MTD, Sr.

1. You never seen me work, so you're assumption of my abilities means nothing to me.
2. I would never be on any court with you as I have already graduated from your brand of basketball.

As for you doing anything to me physically... you really don't want to be labelled as an internt thug, do ya?? If you were talking verbally, I'd simply walk away as I do with most old timers that haven't camped in over a decade

[APG]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Tref:

1989 mind set!! Listen up whippersnapper! I have forgotten more about basketball officiating and still know more than you do about basketball officiating. You do not know the first thing about basketball officiating. You don't know difference between officiating your PCA and officiating Off Ball outside of your PCA. If you and I were on the same officiating crew and you tried to pull that horse manure with me, I would rip you a new tuchus at halftime.

MTD, Sr.

I'm sorry, but LOL @ this...this smacks of a partner that NEVER, EVER wants an official to call in his primary area.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I'm sorry, but LOL @ this...this smacks of a partner that NEVER, EVER wants an official to call in his primary area.

Come on now....we're talking about making violation calls that are close and tough to see from 40 feet away where it is more likely a matter of judgement than a matter of who is right...and I'm going with the guy 10' from the play over the lead who is 40' away and shouldn't even be looking that on a play that is not by any stretch of the imagination an OMG play. If he had come in to get it, we may very well have had another poster writing about a partner who made an AT&T call and got it completely wrong.

Plus, I have a hard time believing the trail was looking at backs and butt on a trap at half court but the lead had a clear view into the play...that seems like the trappers were on the wrong side of the play and the offensive player would have had a clear path to the basket....or the description is not quite accurate.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by tref

Grandma always said EVERYbody aint crazy.

So...you are going to use Grandma's advice when the crowd boos and moans, but not when a group of officials are on one accord? Interesting.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Maybe the T went against pre-game and didn't make the held ball call that should have been made so the L judges that A1 voluntarily let the ball drop after being capped?

You said B1 capped the ball. You say the play was up high (above the rim plays). What were you waiting on to determine whether or not is was a held ball?

+1

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Didn't you say you pregamed for the Lead to lay off above-the-rim plays? If so the play in #1 is not the Lead's call to make, it was yours. So which are we supposed to be going by in judging this play? Go by whose PCA it was or go by what was established in your pre-game? Patient whistle has nothing to do with play #1. Lead saw a player go up with ball and land with the ball. Your overly patient whistle made him look bad.

And again with #3. You say you saw that the official was straight-lined and you say you clearly saw a held ball. Why are you waiting?

+1...again

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by tref

L goes against the pregame & calls the above the rim play a travel. I was T & told him what I & just about everybody else in the gym saw.

Do you always make decisions or form an opinion based on what everybody else in the gym saw? Using your thinking everybody in the gym should have a whistle since what they see is the correct ruling on plays. Right?

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by tref

...I simply allowed him to referee his play...

When read after everything else in this thread, I think this sounds kind of arrogant. Did you let him go use the bathroom at halftime?

Originally Posted by tref

I hear you & appreciate all the input from everyone! Yeah, I listen to all & really try to take away things from peers especially top tier officials.
But for the record, I achieved the same a couple years ago. So I must be doing something right...
I agree that it takes more than merely blowing a whistle to be considered an exceptional official, BUT... getting plays right is first & foremost. Wouldn't you agree?

You may have did something right to get that championship, but if you have been perfect since then you should quit right now.

I think you should have called travel in your first play. Some things should just be called. Keep things simple and this whole situation wouldn't have happened. Now, you could have been surprised and simply missed the jump ball.

In the third play, you didn't answer a question from before: who was watching the other 7 players? Some things you shouldn't see. The fact that you see all of these plays makes me think you may be a ball watcher.

Advancing doesn't always mean an official is the best official. Assignors do not know everything and sometimes choose championship officials based on social factors. Not saying that applies to you, but to simply say you have worked championships doesn't mean...