Bang-bang

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

...
Has anyone had this situation? And did you tack on the other foul?

Yes I have and yes I called a T.

A few years ago when I was first starting work BV on somewhat regular basis. 2-man crew and Team B has been applying backcourt pressure on almost every possession. I'm T on the shot and new Lead on the rebound. A1 (big man) gets defensive rebound in middle of the paint and has elbows up, B1 and B2 (guards) apply immediate harassment so I stay put and referee. A1 pivots one way and gets fouled by B1. Apparently he doesn't hear the whistle and pivots back with elbow leading and connects to B2's head. He didn't swing the elbow excessively, it was part of his pivot, but it was definitely intended to keep little hands from slapping at him. If it would have been a live ball I definitely would have had a PC. B2 had heard the whistle and had relaxed and wasn't paying attention to A1's movement.

Some here may say I should have had a flagrant T. Some might say I should have had nothing. I went with intentional contact technical. Commissioner was in attendance and came in at halftime and asked about the play. He responded that he was happy with how I handled it and it was what was needed to clean up what had started to become a chippy game.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Yes I have and yes I called a T.

A few years ago when I was first starting work BV on somewhat regular basis. 2-man crew and Team B has been applying backcourt pressure on almost every possession. I'm T on the shot and new Lead on the rebound. A1 (big man) gets defensive rebound in middle of the paint and has elbows up, B1 and B2 (guards) apply immediate harassment so I stay put and referee. A1 pivots one way and gets fouled by B1. Apparently he doesn't hear the whistle and pivots back with elbow leading and connects to B2's head. He didn't swing he elbow excessively, it was part of his pivot, but it was definitely intended to keep little hands from slapping at him. If it would have been a live ball I definitely would have had a PC. B2 had heard the whistle and had relaxed and wasn't paying attention to A1's movement.

Some here may say I should have had a flagrant T. Some might say I should have had nothing. I went with intentional contact technical. Commissioner was in attendance and came in at halftime and asked about the play. He responded that he was happy with how I handled it and it was what was needed to clean up what had started to become a chippy game.

Those two statements are contradictory.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Those two statements are contradictory.

By the letter of the two rules, yes. But with the judgement of the situation applied, you could easily come up with either result if you showed the same play to multiple officials.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

By the letter of the two rules, yes. But with the judgement of the situation applied, you could easily come up with either result if you showed the same play to multiple officials.

If I may, let me give an example of what would be a common foul if live but could be construed as intentional contact if the ball is dead.

A1 guarded by B1. A1 makes nice move beats B1 and then as A1 is passing the ball B1 whacks him across the arm. Whistle. Common Foul.

A1 guarded by B1. A1 makes what he thinks is a nice move. Whistle. Travelling. A1 goes to pass the ball to the official in front of him and B1, fully aware the play is dead, whacks A1 across the arm.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If I may, let me give an example of what would be a common foul if live but could be construed as intentional contact if the ball is dead.

A1 guarded by B1. A1 makes nice move beats B1 and then as A1 is passing the ball B1 whacks him across the arm. Whistle. Common Foul.

A1 guarded by B1. A1 makes what he thinks is a nice move. Whistle. Travelling. A1 goes to pass the ball to the official in front of him and B1, fully aware the play is dead, whacks A1 across the arm.

Apples and oranges. In the latter case, the player hit the opponent just for the hell of it. It wasn't to stop a play they though was ongoing. It is not the same contact situation with the only difference being the status of the ball.

[Welpe]

I had one last Saturday in a boys JH game. Physical game getting chippy and we had a held ball. A1 took exception to something and swung his elbows in a get off me move. He clipped B1 in the chin and I T'd him up. I thought it sent a clear message we weren't going to let them continue down that path with out consequences and it worked.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Those two statements are contradictory.

If the ball were live his pivot and contact would have been a PC. No excessive swinging of the elbows. The ball was dead and as I said his movement was definitely in the MO of "beware if you get in my path". Like I said, B2 had relaxed. If B2 had being paying attention I don't think he would have gotten hit.

So if you expect me to be able to justify it by the letter of the rule book, then I possibly would lose the battle in moot court. But in the real world moment I felt alright with my call and so did my the person who gave me the game.

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So if you expect me to be able to justify it by the letter of the rule book, then I possibly would lose the battle in moot court. But in the real world moment I felt alright with me call and so did my the person who gave me the game.

At the end of the day this is all that matters.

Thanks for the replies all!

I'm glad I took my partners info & tacked on the T.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tref

At the end of the day this is all that matters.

Thanks for the replies all!

I'm glad I took my partners info & tacked on the T.

I assumed you did. I know that when we had the elbow a few weeks ago (and didn't see it) I wish we had so I could've hit the kid with an intentional (it was during live ball action).