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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 27, 2006, 04:44pm
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Bang-bang-thud obstruction question

Fed rules. B1 hits slow grounder to F6, who fields it and throws to F3. F3 has foot on first, but leaving access for B1. Throw comes in low and offline toward the home plate side. F3 comes off the bag about a foot, bends down, and catches ball. As she bends down, her hips move slightly backward, as is natural when bending over (try touching your toes with your heels touching a wall). The hip movement unintentionally blocks the basepath. B1, without first slowing or altering her path (no time to react), glances off F3's hip and falls to foul ground past first, without touching the bag. The time from F3 beginning the bend though the contact to the catch was no more than a quarter-second. F3 purposely steps on first base just after B1 hits the ground. Ball hit glove an instant after runner hits fielder.
1: Obstruction?
2: Safe at first for passing the bag without touching it and wait for a definite appeal?
3: Nothing/collision/train wreck/incidental contact?
4: If ball hit glove instant before runner/fielder contact and fielder dropped it, interference?
5: If ball hit glove before player contact, but after B1 veered or slowed, what then?
6: When is a collision a nothing?
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Old Thu Apr 27, 2006, 05:07pm
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Reads like OBS.
#5 reads like OBS, also.
Both would require judgement that the BR would have made it w/o the OBS, except that the BR/R cannot be out between the bases where OBS happened.

Before WMB says it, in NFHS right now, it can't be #3 and #6 is never.

#4 - probably.
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Old Thu Apr 27, 2006, 05:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L
Fed rules. B1 hits slow grounder to F6, who fields it and throws to F3. F3 has foot on first, but leaving access for B1. Throw comes in low and offline toward the home plate side. F3 comes off the bag about a foot, bends down, and catches ball. As she bends down, her hips move slightly backward, as is natural when bending over (try touching your toes with your heels touching a wall). The hip movement unintentionally blocks the basepath. B1, without first slowing or altering her path (no time to react), glances off F3's hip and falls to foul ground past first, without touching the bag. The time from F3 beginning the bend though the contact to the catch was no more than a quarter-second. F3 purposely steps on first base just after B1 hits the ground. Ball hit glove an instant after runner hits fielder.
Actually, you didn't give us enough information.

Was the BR in the 3' lane?
Quote:

1: Obstruction?
Probably
Quote:
2: Safe at first for passing the bag without touching it and wait for a definite appeal?
Yes
Quote:
3: Nothing/collision/train wreck/incidental contact?
Probably not
Quote:
4: If ball hit glove instant before runner/fielder contact and fielder dropped it, interference?
Probably not. Did F3 control the ball before it was dropped?
Quote:
5: If ball hit glove before player contact, but after B1 veered or slowed, what then?
OBS
Quote:

6: When is a collision a nothing?
What C-One said.
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Last edited by IRISHMAFIA; Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 06:24am.
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Old Thu Apr 27, 2006, 08:54pm
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NFHS Game

I saw this play happen at an NFHS game the other day. Seems to fit right in with this post.

R1 on third
R2 on second
Infield in.
B1 his a slow roller to F3. BR sprints towards first.
As she is running by F3, F3 attempts to tag her. BR speed and size advantage (D1 recruit) knocks ball out and F3 to the ground. The only contact was the glove hand and forearm of F3.
R1 scores.
What do you call?
I'll tell you what happened after you weigh in.
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Old Thu Apr 27, 2006, 10:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFA67
I saw this play happen at an NFHS game the other day. Seems to fit right in with this post.

R1 on third
R2 on second
Infield in.
B1 his a slow roller to F3. BR sprints towards first.
As she is running by F3, F3 attempts to tag her. BR speed and size advantage (D1 recruit) knocks ball out and F3 to the ground. The only contact was the glove hand and forearm of F3.
R1 scores.
What do you call?
I'll tell you what happened after you weigh in.

Unless BR intentionally knocks ball out of F3 grasp, then safe at first, all play stands. If intent, then BR out for INT and runners return to last base acquired at time of interference.

As for Irish's question, yes, the runner was out of the running lane. However the play occurred within a step or two of first, so BR has some leeway to get to the bag if she's in the lane. Also, her being out of the lane did not hinder the catch, and the throw was not from the home plate area anyway.

Does anyone disagree that this play cannot be a nothing under NFHS rules?
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Old Fri Apr 28, 2006, 06:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L
As for Irish's question, yes, the runner was out of the running lane.
Then it was INT

Quote:
However the play occurred within a step or two of first, so BR has some leeway to get to the bag if she's in the lane.
She gets the last step and if taught properly, uses the left foot so there is no need to leave the runner lane.

Quote:
Also, her being out of the lane did not hinder the catch, and the throw was not from the home plate area anyway.
Who mentioned the catcher and what would that have to do with a lane violation?
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Old Fri Apr 28, 2006, 08:22am
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Mike, I see why you might have interference here even on a throw from somewhere other than home, if the play was actually interfered with. And it's a good point to bring up, since most of us don't even think about interference on a play like this, and we probably should.

But from the OP, I can't see interference for two reasons... 1) It sounds like there was no play interfered with... fielder caught the ball - nothing the BR did caused anything to happen to the fielder's chances at making a play, and 2) since the throw pulled F3 off the bag and down the line, sounds like we don't have a "quality throw" here.
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Old Fri Apr 28, 2006, 08:41am
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I am not sure where the thought of INT came from, but I am interested. I thought to get INT with a thrown ball you had to have intent, i am speaking of the OP in this thread, a throw from F6 put F3 into a place where runner contacts her. Interested to hear what I am missing to get INT on this one.

Also I think you can have still have a collision, but only after the fielder has possesion of the ball. Let's say we combine the OP's 4 and 5. Fielder has possesion of ball prior to the contact with BR, and let's say BR did not react to F3 prior to her having possesion and then the contact occurres then we have a train wreck play on. Contact or reaction of BR prior to possesion---OBS, Intentional contact by BR with throw, or impeding a fielder getting to a batted ball---INT
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Old Fri Apr 28, 2006, 09:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED
I am not sure where the thought of INT came from, but I am interested. I thought to get INT with a thrown ball you had to have intent,
Exception being a running lane violation, right?
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Old Fri Apr 28, 2006, 09:53am
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Dave, not a thrown ball, but with defender receiving throw at 1B.

Mike, this was a response to question #4 where the ball was dropped.
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Old Fri Apr 28, 2006, 10:49am
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Ah - I don't think that was clear. Your question to OP about the 3'foot lane did not specify it was to one of the sub-questions, so I assumed you were talking about the original situation.

But I understand your point now.
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Old Fri Apr 28, 2006, 12:06pm
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[quote=IRISHMAFIA]

PaulL Quote:
Also, her being out of the lane did not hinder the catch, and the throw was not from the home plate area anyway.


Who mentioned the catcher and what would that have to do with a lane violation?


I meant hindering the catch by F3, but I always thought that the three-foot lane rule was intended to prevent interference with a throw up the first-base line by a fielder, usually F2, from in front of home plate. I now realize that NFHS 8-2-5 says "interferes with the fielder taking the throw at first base". So, to use an extreme example, a 3-foot lane violation conceivably could interfere a throw from F8, huh? Live and learn.

One last question: in post 3 or 4 above, Mr. Rowe said that under the OP, yes, call the runner safe for passing first and then wait for a definite appeal. NFHS 2-1-10 says such an appeal must be made before the runner returns while ball is live, and 2-1-3 says a live-ball appeal may be made by fielder in possession of the ball touching the base missed. So Mike, are you saying that F3's purposeful touch of first must be clearly an appeal, as opposed to a too-late attempt to "force" the BR before she gets to first? Does the defense specifically have to mention the missed base?
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Old Fri Apr 28, 2006, 03:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L
So Mike, are you saying that F3's purposeful touch of first must be clearly an appeal, as opposed to a too-late attempt to "force" the BR before she gets to first? Does the defense specifically have to mention the missed base?
Absolutely. By definition, there are no "accidental" appeals.
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