My New #1 Myth

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Here's why.

When people say "over the back" and "reaching" fouls, they perpetuate myths that all you have to do is invade someone's personal space to commit a foul. The smarter the fan base is, the easier the job for all of us.

Meanwhile, we can just sit back and say, "Oh well, that's just the way fans/coaches are." I don't believe that. I believe those that are interested in the game would like to know when they've believing in a myth. I've talked to a number of people that weren't aware of many of the rules we've come to learn, and these are people that are genuinely interested.

Do we teach these things during a game? No, that's very seldom the time or the place, especially at the high school level. We have jobs to do. However, I see no harm in getting the word out when fallacies take over facts. To the contrary, I believe they help, even if it takes a lot of small ripple effects along the way.

I think this is a stretch, and I think you continue to misuse the term "myth." Over the back and reach aren't myths. It is just terminology the average basketball person uses to describe general actions they think are illegal. Over the back almost universally applies to rebounding action.

What, do you want fans and coaches to yell "That's an illegal push in the back on the rebound!!" Come on.

Getting high and mighty about terms like these isn't going to change anything, if anything it's going to make you look either out of touch or a little too big for your britches. These kinds of terms aren't going away. The best you can do is learn how to communicate with coaches and players in spite of them.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by fiasco

What, do you want fans and coaches to yell "That's an illegal push in the back on the rebound!!" Come on.

"Pushing" "Displacement"

When a coach uses one of those terms (or some form thereof), my respect for him/her goes way up.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

"Pushing" "Displacement"

When a coach uses one of those terms (or some form thereof), my respect for him/her goes way up.

I had one use displacement earlier this season, except he was mocking my proper use of it a few minutes earlier. He earned my ignoring him for the rest of the half with that nonsense.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I think this is a stretch, and I think you continue to misuse the term "myth." Over the back and reach aren't myths. It is just terminology the average basketball person uses to describe general actions they think are illegal. Over the back almost universally applies to rebounding action.

What, do you want fans and coaches to yell "That's an illegal push in the back on the rebound!!" Come on.

Getting high and mighty about terms like these isn't going to change anything, if anything it's going to make you look either out of touch or a little too big for your britches. These kinds of terms aren't going away. The best you can do is learn how to communicate with coaches and players in spite of them.

I wouldn't disagree with this if I hadn't had too many coaches ask for "reach" and "over the back" when there's obviously no contact. That said, I don't blame them. I blame the officials who should know better but still report fouls with this terminology.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I wouldn't disagree with this if I hadn't had too many coaches ask for "reach" and "over the back" when there's obviously no contact. That said, I don't blame them. I blame the officials who should know better but still report fouls with this terminology.

I do not know a lot of officials (I would really have to think about a single one) reporting fouls like this and it is used often by players, coaches and fans.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not know a lot of officials (I would really have to think about a single one) reporting fouls like this and it is used often by players, coaches and fans.

Peace

I don't see it often, but it doesn't take many. The words themselves, as perpetuated by announcers and such, actually give the perception to fans that it's actually a foul to reach or go over someone's back.

Most high school coaches understand the difference, and the fans are the biggest whiners.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I don't see it often, but it doesn't take many. The words themselves, as perpetuated by announcers and such, actually give the perception to fans that it's actually a foul to reach or go over someone's back.

Most high school coaches understand the difference, and the fans are the biggest whiners.

My point is it is apart of their vernacular, they do not get that usage from officials. It is one of those things passed down that no one corrects and they actually think it is a foul. I hear this every single game or a coach going crazy over this and not a single official on the floor used that language. Now of course this could be based on different areas and different coaches and officials, but I hear it no matter what is going on ("Over the back") at all levels I work and the coaches seriously think it is a foul.

Peace

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

My point is it is apart of their vernacular, they do not get that usage from officials. It is one of those things passed down that no one corrects and they actually think it is a foul.

There it is. I've only heard it from one partner, a former coach in his sixties. My son said he heard it from an official in a freshman game last week, and described the official as "elderly."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

There it is. I've only heard it from one partner, a former coach in his sixties. My son said he heard it from an official in a freshman game last week, and described the official as "elderly."

I see it mostly with newer officials.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I wouldn't disagree with this if I hadn't had too many coaches ask for "reach" and "over the back" when there's obviously no contact. That said, I don't blame them. I blame the officials who should know better but still report fouls with this terminology.

He probably advocates the Frankenstein mechanic, too.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

He probably advocates the Frankenstein mechanic, too.

The creeping death foul?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

He probably advocates the Frankenstein mechanic, too.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The creeping death foul?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I think this is a stretch, and I think you continue to misuse the term "myth." Over the back and reach aren't myths. It is just terminology the average basketball person uses to describe general actions they think are illegal. Over the back almost universally applies to rebounding action.

What, do you want fans and coaches to yell "That's an illegal push in the back on the rebound!!" Come on.

Getting high and mighty about terms like these isn't going to change anything, if anything it's going to make you look either out of touch or a little too big for your britches. These kinds of terms aren't going away. The best you can do is learn how to communicate with coaches and players in spite of them.

That's exactly why there are myths. "Over the back" is the terminology used for the myth that reaching over another player's back without making contact is a foul. "Reaching" is the terminology for the myth that reaching across a dribbler's arm without making contact is a foul.

The correct response to "over the back" and "reaching" is they aren't fouls. Using them just promotes the idea that contact isn't a necessary component to a personal foul.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by fiasco

What, do you want fans and coaches to yell "That's an illegal push in the back on the rebound!!" Come on.

You're missing the point.

A push is not OVER the back. "Over" means zero contact. Look at FortMoney's "breaking the plane" example. THIS is the myth, and the words we choose can make or break myths.

You can't be afraid of looking "high and mighty" when dealing with these terms. You can get your point across without doing so. We're the officials. If we're not going to call "over the back" fouls, then perhaps we should say so.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bainsey

A push is not OVER the back. "Over" means zero contact.

To you, maybe. To some (most?) it INCLUDES zero contact, but it also includes contact that isn't a foul, and contact that is a foul.

I think it's incorrect to say "over the back is never a foul." It might (or might not) be a foul -- and that's why it's insufficient to ... ask for? ... an over the back call.