Flagrant/Intentional

[Cav0]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

On a side note, in what state was this game played. I dig the gray officiating shirts.

MTD, Sr.

The game was played in Texas, most chapters around here have gone to the gray shirts for varsity games and even a good bit of the subvarsity games as well.

Thanks for the good discussion everyone, if I get to talk to the coach of either team in later games (my school does play both schools later on) I'll see if I can find out anymore information. Again, thanks for all the talk and info on this video and other that come up on this site.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

.... If you pause it there, you cannot see the ball, W24's hands, or B24's left hand that is swiping down. Maybe she got all ball??? We can't tell, L can't see it, C doesn't have the best angle either.
....

There is no doubt B24 contacted W24 prior to B24's action. The only debate would be whether or not that contact constituted a foul.

[Toren]

I got a flagrant for punch being thrown. But I agree it's debatable given the angle of the video and the distance from the play.

However, does anyone else have a problem with the fact that players from both teams are walking all over the court? The L is talking to the player who just got punched, the other two are talking to each other. There are 9 players unaccounted.

This could have gotten uglier.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Actually I said it was unclear and I was not alone in saying that. Again, if you want to call a flagrant foul, good for you. I honestly do not care or would not object to your judgment.
Peace

Actually, in post #3 you said "I guess it depends if you consider the ball handler to throw a punch. But there was some contact before that, so based on the angle I cannot say that was the case with confidence." Sounds like you thought it was clear at that point. So with the same angle you have contact by B24, but can't tell if W24 pushed or punched.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But they obviously did not agree with you right? They obviously did not call a flagrant right? And since it was so clear to you on a tape looking at a strightlined view, they obviously had likely a better angle than you did and came to some conclusion other than what you and a few with the benefit of replay and watching over and over the officials seemed to not have.
Peace

Which official had a better angle?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I will say it this way, you are flat out wrong. You are wrong because if a player was trying to get their arm free and inadvertently hit someone in the face, head or chest is different than throwing a punch out of anger. If it was not the case than the NCAA would not have officials look at the monitor for plays like this in the first place. And unlike the NCAA these guys did not get replay or other angles to help them make the call. And younger officials need to also realize that if they make the wrong ruling in someone's eyes, they might be subjected to not working certain games or be perceived as not having good judgment. We can debate this tape all day like we did the last one on flagrant fouls and even in that one there were opinions all over the place on what was or what was not flagrant. It does matter everything that takes place because it might tell the story as to if this was a punch or just a reaction to being held. I have been around long enough in my local area to hear about an official that overreacted to a situation only to later be taken off games or banned from a conference because they did not use "good judgment." Just because I think what happen first matters to the reaction on some level is not unusual in officiating and why the officials talked in this situation. If it was clear, they would have not needed to talk.
Peace

My advice to players is if you are trying to get your arm free, you better be pulling your arm towards your own body and not pushing it towards anyone else. Otherwise you're asking for trouble. The whole "get off me" thing has gone over the top and is only causing problems, imho.

I think we all need to be reminded that we all can be videotaped at any time and it can be on the internet. Non-basketball plays need to be caught and dealt with properly and correctly. I think the majority of us take in to consideration on what happened first, in regards to a reaction, as long as the reaction is a basketball play. If the reaction is non-basketball in nature, then I don't care what happened first.

Maybe it wasn't clear to the crew because none of them saw it.

I'm done. Good luck in the state tournament Jeff.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Actually, in post #3 you said "I guess it depends if you consider the ball handler to throw a punch. But there was some contact before that, so based on the angle I cannot say that was the case with confidence." Sounds like you thought it was clear at that point. So with the same angle you have contact by B24, but can't tell if W24 pushed or punched.

OoooKaaaaayyy?? What is your point?

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Which official had a better angle?

Without going back and looking it looked like the official on the other side of the court would have had a better angle of the push off or punch.

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

My advice to players is if you are trying to get your arm free, you better be pulling your arm towards your own body and not pushing it towards anyone else. Otherwise you're asking for trouble. The whole "get off me" thing has gone over the top and is only causing problems, imho.

OK?

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I think we all need to be reminded that we all can be videotaped at any time and it can be on the internet. Non-basketball plays need to be caught and dealt with properly and correctly. I think the majority of us take in to consideration on what happened first, in regards to a reaction, as long as the reaction is a basketball play. If the reaction is non-basketball in nature, then I don't care what happened first.

Ok?

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Maybe it wasn't clear to the crew because none of them saw it.

I'm done. Good luck in the state tournament Jeff.

Well glad you got that off your chest.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Actually I said it was unclear and I was not alone in saying that. Again, if you want to call a flagrant foul, good for you. I honestly do not care or would not object to your judgment.



OK it is clear.



But they obviously did not agree with you right? They obviously did not call a flagrant right? And since it was so clear to you on a tape looking at a strightlined view, they obviously had likely a better angle than you did and came to some conclusion other than what you and a few with the benefit of replay and watching over and over the officials seemed to not have.



I will say it this way, you are flat out wrong. You are wrong because if a player was trying to get their arm free and inadvertently hit someone in the face, head or chest is different than throwing a punch out of anger. If it was not the case than the NCAA would not have officials look at the monitor for plays like this in the first place. And unlike the NCAA these guys did not get replay or other angles to help them make the call. And younger officials need to also realize that if they make the wrong ruling in someone's eyes, they might be subjected to not working certain games or be perceived as not having good judgment. We can debate this tape all day like we did the last one on flagrant fouls and even in that one there were opinions all over the place on what was or what was not flagrant. It does matter everything that takes place because it might tell the story as to if this was a punch or just a reaction to being held. I have been around long enough in my local area to hear about an official that overreacted to a situation only to later be taken off games or banned from a conference because they did not use "good judgment." Just because I think what happen first matters to the reaction on some level is not unusual in officiating and why the officials talked in this situation. If it was clear, they would have not needed to talk.

Peace

A similar thing should happen if an official under reacts and leaves a kid in the game who should've been ejected on a flagrant, right?

I will agree with what you said with respect to a held arm and the reaction. We had a player throw an elbow the other night that did not land and the other coach was all over us. Of course, the opposing player had grabbed hold of the arm in an effort to get to the ball and the reaction was to try to free himself from the hold. Just what I told the coach, too. Maybe he didn't like that, but then again, approximately half the people in those types of situations don't like what we say either.

Off to do a game. Assignment 2 of 6 this week. I like being busy.

[constable]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is no "mechanic." As kind of illustrated when someone is ejecting someone from the game they verbalize the action and give the "heave ho" signal on some level. Again nothing mechanically to make that clear, but you need to make it clear that someone is not coming back into the game.

At the table I give the "thumb" signal like you used to see from really old-time baseball umpires.

Peace

Like the C coming in here to inform Bynum he's a goon....

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[constable]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

A similar thing should happen if an official under reacts and leaves a kid in the game who should've been ejected on a flagrant, right?

I will agree with what you said with respect to a held arm and the reaction. We had a player throw an elbow the other night that did not land and the other coach was all over us. Of course, the opposing player had grabbed hold of the arm in an effort to get to the ball and the reaction was to try to free himself from the hold. Just what I told the coach, too. Maybe he didn't like that, but then again, approximately half the people in those types of situations don't like what we say either.

Off to do a game. Assignment 2 of 6 this week. I like being busy.

6 assignments in a week is busy? Out of curiosity how many games do you do a year?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by constable

6 assignments in a week is busy? Out of curiosity how many games do you do a year?

6 of 7 days isn't busy to you?

[constable]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

6 of 7 days isn't busy to you?

I work rotating 12 hour shifts, so I don't work nearly as much as some people but it isn't uncommon me to work 4 high school league assignments (Jv and V double headers) through the week and then another 5-6 double headers on the weekend.....

[Rich]

Originally Posted by constable

I work rotating 12 hour shifts, so I don't work nearly as much as some people but it isn't uncommon me to work 4 high school league assignments (Jv and V double headers) through the week and then another 5-6 double headers on the weekend.....

We work single games here. A JV crew works the JV game. There are *no* HS games on Wednesdays and Sundays. I work no rec ball. So working 6 games (4 days during the week and 2 on Saturdays (afternoon/evening)) is about as good as it gets around here.

A full season is about 45-60 assignments around here. That's enough. I'd gladly work 2 games a night, but they just don't do that and working one BV game is enough for me, especially since many of our games are still 2-person.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by constable

6 assignments in a week is busy? Out of curiosity how many games do you do a year?

Most definitely busy for me. Just realized I have 7 games this week.

Not working much HS ball this season b/c of a contract controversy that is happening locally. But even in a normal season 4 games in a week would be the most I'd want to do.

I started officiating when I needed extra income due to my first marriage breaking up and I always had a 50/50 split on custodial time with my children. So I've never been a available to work a high number of games in a week. Back in my early days there were those weekends where I'd work a whole bunch of AAU games but then the next weekend I would work zero.

[Lcubed48]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Most definitely busy for me. Just realized I have 7 games this week.

When is the BNR road show coming to the River City?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Lcubed48

When is the BNR road show coming to the River City?

Won't know that until around June. I heard rumor that your new commissioner has been named, is that true?

[Lcubed48]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Won't know that until around June. I heard rumor that your new commissioner has been named, is that true?

I've PM'ed you on this matter.