intentional vs flagrant

[Ptflea2]

Sadly I have to admit that I'm having a hard time distinguishing the differences between intentional fouls and flagrant fouls and the rules that apply to them (two shots and the ball, or POI). I don't have my rule book and also did a search on this forum but got more confused. I will give two scenarios and ask my questions with each (NFHS).

Example 1: Player A has a clear drive to the hoop and as he goes in for the layup, player B grabs him from behind and pulls him to the ground with no real attempt at the ball.

Since the ball is live, this has to be intentional right?. Two shots and the ball for A. However, is B disqualified?

Example 2: Player A is boxing out player B under the goal and while doing so raises his elbows, swings and hits player B in the face.

Is this the same as throwing a punch? What are other easy examples of a flagrant foul?


Thanks for the help.

PS. I understand how important it is to use correct terms when explaining rules and I'm really trying to work hard at using all the correct terminology for these fouls. I'm still learning, so forgive me if I've used incorrect "verbiage"

[truerookie]

[QUOTE=Ptflea2;677689]

Example 1: Player A has a clear drive to the hoop and as he goes in for the layup, player B grabs him from behind and pulls him to the ground with no real attempt at the ball.

Since the ball is live, this has to be intentional right?. RIGHT Two shots and the ball for A. However, is B disqualified? NO I would not DQ him for this..


Example 2: Player A is boxing out player B under the goal and while doing so raises his elbows, swings and hits player B in the face. Had to be there to see this one. From with you describe I would go with a common foul.

Is this the same as throwing a punch? What are other easy examples of a flagrant foul?

[Ptflea2]

So you are not disqualified after an intentional foul?

[tref]

Correct, flagrant technical/personal result in DQs.

[JRutledge]

If you are having a hard time knowing the deference, then you need to simply read the definitions of the two types of fouls. This is not the NBA, so the term "flagrant" does not have the same meaning. And intentional foul can be during a live or a dead ball. The rules at the NF or NCAA level do not use the term "clear path" or anything that helps determine a type of foul.

BTW, I have only once in my career seen a flagrant foul (based on basketball type contact). This is not something that happens very often. Hard fouls can be intentional and not flagrant. This just sounds like you do not know the basic definitions and really need to get into the definitions rather than calling this by the seat of your pants.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Ptflea2

So you are not disqualified after an intentional foul?

NO!!!!

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ptflea2

So you are not disqualified after an intentional foul?

No, but if you commit 5 of them, you will be.
Or, if two of them are intentional technical fouls, you would be disqualified.
There are two types of player fouls with various subjections.
1. Personal
a) common
b) shooting
c) intentional
d) flagrant

2. Technical
a) unsporting
b) intentional

A few years ago in a freshman boys game, we had a player who was a bit out of control. He shoved a player from behind rather than give him a wide open layup. I called the intentional.

Later in the game, he did it again, to a smaller player. The second time, you could see he was really out of control and dangerous. My partner called a flagrant on that one.

With live ball contact, it really depends on intent.

In your scenarios, you could consider an intentional with the elbow based on excessive contact. Calling the intentional foul there is likely to stop that behavior. If it doesn't, and the player continues to disregard the rules so flagrantly, a flagrant foul may be in order.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is not the NBA, so the term "flagrant" does not have the same meaning.

I think you've hit on our new poster's problem.

[bainsey]

In NFHS, flagrant=disqualification.

As for your examples, severity of the contact and intent could help determine whether this is flagrant or intentional. Example 1 sounds intentional, at the very least. Example 2 sounds common.

[Ptflea2]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you are having a hard time knowing the deference, then you need to simply read the definitions of the two types of fouls. This is not the NBA, so the term "flagrant" does not have the same meaning. And intentional foul can be during a live or a dead ball. The rules at the NF or NCAA level do not use the term "clear path" or anything that helps determine a type of foul.

BTW, I have only once in my career seen a flagrant foul (based on basketball type contact). This is not something that happens very often. Hard fouls can be intentional and not flagrant. This just sounds like you do not know the basic definitions and really need to get into the definitions rather than calling this by the seat of your pants.

Peace

I agree with you, I'm not as sharp as I need to be with the definitions of these two fouls. During my free time at work, I try and spend some time on my rules knowledge and application. Kinda hard to do when you don't have your rule book right?(which I stated in the first post) It's been bothering me all morning that I can't come up with the differences between the two so I came on here to try and remedy that.

[Ptflea2]

Originally Posted by jrutledge

no!!!!

Peace

thank you!!!!!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ptflea2

I agree with you, I'm not as sharp as I need to be with the definitions of these two fouls. During my free time at work, I try and spend some time on my rules knowledge and application. Kinda hard to do when you don't have your rule book right?(which I stated in the first post) It's been bothering me all morning that I can't come up with the differences between the two so I came on here to try and remedy that.

Has this helped?

[Ptflea2]

Very much. You spread it out easily:

1. Personal
a) common
b) shooting
c) intentional
d) flagrant

2. Technical
a) unsporting
b) intentional


However, what is the difference between 1. C and 2. B ?

[Mark Padgett]

I've always used the following guidelines for determining if a foul was flagrant. If the fouling player displayed an intent to injure or showed an utter disregard for the safety of the player he fouled, then it's flagrant.

I know these determinations are still subjective, but I think that the more experience you have, the more qualified you will be to make a decision on whether or not the foul met those guidelines based on all the play you've seen over the years and the context of that particular foul.

As the saying goes, there's no substitute for experience. At least, that's what the sexy lady down on the corner tells me.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ptflea2

Very much. You spread it out easily:

1. Personal
a) common
b) shooting
c) intentional
d) flagrant

2. Technical
a) unsporting
b) intentional
c) flagrant

However, what is the difference between 1. C and 2. B ?

1C is a live ball contact foul (such as your example.)
2B is a dead ball contact foul. Dead ball contact is to be ignored unless it is either intentional or flagrant. (I added 2C above)