Flagrant/Intentional

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Cav0

The play was called either an intentional or a technical, I heard the story 2nd hand from people who aren't officials and couldn't tell me for sure and this is the only video I have from the game (Not my schools game, or I'd try to get more video or the book to find out) I can see an official signal a T in the video, but then there was a discussion so I don't know if it was changed.

I do know that no foul was called on the defensive player before the shove and the player was not disqualified on the play.

We do not see the official signal to the table or any information that someone was ejected or where they put the ball in place. And intentional foul is administered very different from a technical foul. And a flagrant foul does not have to be a technical.

I cannot tell if this is a "get off me" shove or a full out punch to the chest of face.

Peace

[Cav0]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We do not see the official signal to the table or any information that someone was ejected or where they put the ball in place. And intentional foul is administered very different from a technical foul. And a flagrant foul does not have to be a technical.

I cannot tell if this is a "get off me" shove or a full out punch to the chest of face.

Peace

Sorry I can't tell you anymore, I wasn't there. Based on what was described to me, the player was not ejected and participated further in the game and the team in black received 2 free throws and retained possession, though I do not know the spot of the following throw-in. I said intentional or flagrant, since those would both carry that result (without knowing the spot of the throw-in).

[BillyMac]

Flagrant personal foul charged to White 24. Two free throws for Blue 24. Blue gets the ball back at the spot closest to the foul. White 24 "ejected" to the bench.

I could also understand an intentional foul here, but that wouldn't be my call.

No technical foul here because all the contact was during a live ball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Cav0

Sorry I can't tell you anymore, I wasn't there. Based on what was described to me, the player was not ejected and participated further in the game and the team in black received 2 free throws and retained possession, though I do not know the spot of the following throw-in. I said intentional or flagrant, since those would both carry that result (without knowing the spot of the throw-in).

It wasn't flagrant, then, or she wouldn't have played any more of that game.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It wasn't flagrant, then, or she wouldn't have played any more of that game.

Originally Posted by Cav0

The team in black received 2 free throws and retained possession.

So the official must have ruled it an intentional personal foul. I could live with that, but I would have gone flagrant personal foul.

[twocentsworth]

without any doubt in my mind....that is a flagrant foul (NFHS) or flagrant 2 (NCAA). Player ejected; 2 FT's for defense; ball put in at mid-court (NFHS) or ball put in at spot nearest foul (NCAA).

I would go to my partner (as the calling official did), tell them what I have, and ONLY change my call if they they me they saw the play and STRONGLY disagreed.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

without any doubt in my mind....that is a flagrant foul (NFHS) or flagrant 2 (NCAA). Player ejected; 2 FT's for defense; ball put in at mid-court (NFHS) or ball put in at spot nearest foul (NCAA).

Nope.

Unless you can tell me why I'm wrong, this throw in should be at the spot nearest the foul in NFHS.

[Raymond]

I have a flagrant personal foul on A1 based I'm what I'm seeing from this angle.

Might have had a foul on B1 first in that situation.

[IUgrad92]

To say that Blue made illegal contact is a 'guess' from anyone, based on the camera angle. At the time Blue slaps down at the ball, you cannot see either Blue's left hand, W24 hands, or even the ball. That's called being 'straight-lined'. It appears that C didn't have the best angle, and L was straight-lined as well, thus no initial call.

W24's strike to the face/head is a flagarant act. If, and a big if at that, this was a 'push off', then W24 chose the wrong body part. She definitely had other options, but targetted the head.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I have a flagrant personal foul on A1 based I'm what I'm seeing from this angle.

Might have had a foul on B1 first in that situation.

Ok, so let's say we call the foul on B1, and then A1 retaliates after the whistle for B's foul. Then B1 gets the common foul, and A1 is disqualified with a Flagrant T, correct?

If so, then the order of operations would be:
1) false double foul (common on B1, flagrant T on A1).
2) A1 is disqualified.
2) A1's replacement shoots 1-2 FTs (if A is in the bonus), with the lane cleared.
3) Any player(s) or substitute(s) for B shoot 2 FTs for the flagrant T.
4) Throw-in for B at division line opposite table.

Did I get that right?

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We do not see the official signal to the table or any information that someone was ejected or where they put the ball in place. And intentional foul is administered very different from a technical foul. And a flagrant foul does not have to be a technical.

I cannot tell if this is a "get off me" shove or a full out punch to the chest of face.

Peace

So tell me exactly what are the mechanics for a flagrant foul. There is no signal for "flagrant." What is preliminary? How do you report to the table?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

So tell me exactly what are the mechanics for a flagrant foul. There is no signal for "flagrant." What is preliminary? How do you report to the table?

There is no "mechanic." As kind of illustrated when someone is ejecting someone from the game they verbalize the action and give the "heave ho" signal on some level. Again nothing mechanically to make that clear, but you need to make it clear that someone is not coming back into the game.

At the table I give the "thumb" signal like you used to see from really old-time baseball umpires.

Peace

[constable]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is no "mechanic." As kind of illustrated when someone is ejecting someone from the game they verbalize the action and give the "heave ho" signal on some level. Again nothing mechanically to make that clear, but you need to make it clear that someone is not coming back into the game.

At the table I give the "thumb" signal like you used to see from really old-time baseball umpires.

Peace

Like the C coming in here to inform Bynum he's a goon....

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[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

So tell me exactly what are the mechanics for a flagrant foul. There is no signal for "flagrant." What is preliminary? How do you report to the table?

NFHS has no "official" mechanic for a flagrant foul. This kind of thing is much more about game management than precise mechanics anyway. Here's what I would do:

1. Call the foul as the official did, but not signal a T (one thing this cannot be).
2. Given that we have a strange situation that's potentially volatile (esp. if it had been boys), I'm immediately sending both teams toward their benches.
3. Then I can talk to my partners and talk through whether I want to go INT or flagrant on this.
4. Next I report the foul to the table: white, 24, intentional/flagrant foul, (24 is disqualified if flagrant); I use the football DQ signal (thumb back over your shoulder) for a DQ.
5. We just don't have many of these fouls in the leagues I work: I would get the coaches together in front of the table, tell them what I saw, and why I decided to go intentional or flagrant. I'll answer a reasonable question or two, but it's not a debate.
6. I might also tell them (esp. if it had been boys) that we have addressed the problem, and we won't have any retaliation later in the game.
7. Shoot FT's with the lane cleared, give the ball to the fouled team at the spot, and play on.

[ga314ref]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

So tell me exactly what are the mechanics for a flagrant foul. There is no signal for "flagrant." What is preliminary? How do you report to the table?

...you cross your forearms over your head and then bring them down in front of you. There's no official mechanic for ejection, but the hitchhiker's thumb is pretty universal.