Flagrant/Intentional

[Cav0]

I always enjoy reading this board and don't post much because I'm not an official, but do love to read and learn from the people here. This play was discussed at a recent game I was helping at the table for and the video was posted on youtube so that I could see it and I'd be interested to get your opinions on it.

[just another ref]

24 white flagrant personal foul

[JRutledge]

I guess it depends if you consider the ball handler to throw a punch. But there was some contact before that, so based on the angle I cannot say that was the case with confidence. The angle was bad and it would help to know what the officials ruled as well. If the player threw a punch then it is flagrant, but with the contact before that I am not completely sure of that.

Peace

[Cav0]

The play was called either an intentional or a technical, I heard the story 2nd hand from people who aren't officials and couldn't tell me for sure and this is the only video I have from the game (Not my schools game, or I'd try to get more video or the book to find out) I can see an official signal a T in the video, but then there was a discussion so I don't know if it was changed.

I do know that no foul was called on the defensive player before the shove and the player was not disqualified on the play.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Cav0

The play was called either an intentional or a technical, I heard the story 2nd hand from people who aren't officials and couldn't tell me for sure and this is the only video I have from the game (Not my schools game, or I'd try to get more video or the book to find out) I can see an official signal a T in the video, but then there was a discussion so I don't know if it was changed.

I do know that no foul was called on the defensive player before the shove and the player was not disqualified on the play.

We do not see the official signal to the table or any information that someone was ejected or where they put the ball in place. And intentional foul is administered very different from a technical foul. And a flagrant foul does not have to be a technical.

I cannot tell if this is a "get off me" shove or a full out punch to the chest of face.

Peace

[Cav0]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We do not see the official signal to the table or any information that someone was ejected or where they put the ball in place. And intentional foul is administered very different from a technical foul. And a flagrant foul does not have to be a technical.

I cannot tell if this is a "get off me" shove or a full out punch to the chest of face.

Peace

Sorry I can't tell you anymore, I wasn't there. Based on what was described to me, the player was not ejected and participated further in the game and the team in black received 2 free throws and retained possession, though I do not know the spot of the following throw-in. I said intentional or flagrant, since those would both carry that result (without knowing the spot of the throw-in).

[BillyMac]

Flagrant personal foul charged to White 24. Two free throws for Blue 24. Blue gets the ball back at the spot closest to the foul. White 24 "ejected" to the bench.

I could also understand an intentional foul here, but that wouldn't be my call.

No technical foul here because all the contact was during a live ball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Cav0

Sorry I can't tell you anymore, I wasn't there. Based on what was described to me, the player was not ejected and participated further in the game and the team in black received 2 free throws and retained possession, though I do not know the spot of the following throw-in. I said intentional or flagrant, since those would both carry that result (without knowing the spot of the throw-in).

It wasn't flagrant, then, or she wouldn't have played any more of that game.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We do not see the official signal to the table or any information that someone was ejected or where they put the ball in place. And intentional foul is administered very different from a technical foul. And a flagrant foul does not have to be a technical.

I cannot tell if this is a "get off me" shove or a full out punch to the chest of face.

Peace

So tell me exactly what are the mechanics for a flagrant foul. There is no signal for "flagrant." What is preliminary? How do you report to the table?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

So tell me exactly what are the mechanics for a flagrant foul. There is no signal for "flagrant." What is preliminary? How do you report to the table?

There is no "mechanic." As kind of illustrated when someone is ejecting someone from the game they verbalize the action and give the "heave ho" signal on some level. Again nothing mechanically to make that clear, but you need to make it clear that someone is not coming back into the game.

At the table I give the "thumb" signal like you used to see from really old-time baseball umpires.

Peace

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

So tell me exactly what are the mechanics for a flagrant foul. There is no signal for "flagrant." What is preliminary? How do you report to the table?

NFHS has no "official" mechanic for a flagrant foul. This kind of thing is much more about game management than precise mechanics anyway. Here's what I would do:

1. Call the foul as the official did, but not signal a T (one thing this cannot be).
2. Given that we have a strange situation that's potentially volatile (esp. if it had been boys), I'm immediately sending both teams toward their benches.
3. Then I can talk to my partners and talk through whether I want to go INT or flagrant on this.
4. Next I report the foul to the table: white, 24, intentional/flagrant foul, (24 is disqualified if flagrant); I use the football DQ signal (thumb back over your shoulder) for a DQ.
5. We just don't have many of these fouls in the leagues I work: I would get the coaches together in front of the table, tell them what I saw, and why I decided to go intentional or flagrant. I'll answer a reasonable question or two, but it's not a debate.
6. I might also tell them (esp. if it had been boys) that we have addressed the problem, and we won't have any retaliation later in the game.
7. Shoot FT's with the lane cleared, give the ball to the fouled team at the spot, and play on.

[ga314ref]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

So tell me exactly what are the mechanics for a flagrant foul. There is no signal for "flagrant." What is preliminary? How do you report to the table?

...you cross your forearms over your head and then bring them down in front of you. There's no official mechanic for ejection, but the hitchhiker's thumb is pretty universal.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I cannot tell if this is a "get off me" shove or a full out punch to the chest of face.

My first look had the former, so I'd have an intentional.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by bainsey

My first look had the former, so I'd have an intentional.

Same here.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I guess it depends if you consider the ball handler to throw a punch. But there was some contact before that, so based on the angle I cannot say that was the case with confidence. The angle was bad and it would help to know what the officials ruled as well. If the player threw a punch then it is flagrant, but with the contact before that I am not completely sure of that.

Peace

What does the contact beforehand have to do with the punch?