stupid kid; stupid parent

[Ignats75]

Boys JV game last year. Player swore under his breath after being called for a shooting foul. Was not directed at anyone in particular. After the players were lined up, before I administered the shot, I said to him in front of everyone,

"I'm think I heard you say shoot. Just don't cross that line as swearing will get you tee'd up."

Every one gets the message. Now, if the expletive was directed AT any official or player, then WHACK!

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Boys JV game last year. Player swore under his breath after being called for a shooting foul. Was not directed at anyone in particular. After the players were lined up, before I administered the shot, I said to him in front of everyone...

If he said it under his breath, I can certainly see passing on it. Still, if no-one else heard it, why bring it up in front of everyone else? Why not merely speak with him about it?

Originally Posted by 7IronRef

BTW, of course a parent is going to stick up for their child, especially when there was no profanity involved and it wasn't disrepectful.

Not profanity? True. Not disrespectful? Disagree. There are plenty of parents in my area -- myself included -- that wouldn't back their 6th grader for talking to an official like that.

[7IronRef]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Not profanity? True. Not disrespectful? Disagree. There are plenty of parents in my area -- myself included -- that wouldn't back their 6th grader for talking to an official like that.

It was under his breath, the official asked for a repeat (baited), basically knowing that if kid repeated he would T him. The official baited a 6th grader, come on.

The comment and under his breath aspect of if is not disrespectful in my opinion. There are other ways to handle this situation, advise the player or coach in some way so that they know they are about to cross the line (yours, not mine).

If that is your interpretation on every comment made under one's breath, you will have a difficult time being consistent in calling it during games and in calling your children on it. Good luck penalizing everyone of them.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by 7IronRef

TF's are supposed to improve the game

Sorry, but I don't buy that. It's nice when TFs do improve the game (ones that stop a coach from complaining on every trip, for example), but many technical fouls cause dead time where people can focus even more on the technical itself. That doesn't mean that a technical foul should be avoided.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by 7IronRef

If that is your interpretation on every comment made under one's breath...

It isn't. Read the entire post.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by 7IronRef

It was under his breath, the official asked for a repeat (baited), basically knowing that if kid repeated he would T him. The official baited a 6th grader, come on.

The comment and under his breath aspect of if is not disrespectful in my opinion. There are other ways to handle this situation, advise the player or coach in some way so that they know they are about to cross the line (yours, not mine).

If that is your interpretation on every comment made under one's breath, you will have a difficult time being consistent in calling it during games and in calling your children on it. Good luck penalizing everyone of them.

Sorry, but if I can hear it, it's not under his breath. This comment is going to be a T from me in any game I work (I don't work college), getting his fifth foul doesn't give him a free pass. 6th grade game? It would be in the top five easiest calls I've ever made.

Do you really think Dad would have reacted different if the OP had just gone straight to the T? No, Dad just wanted the opportunity to tell the refs how bad he thought they sucked.

And as for the "Ts are supposed to make the game better" canard, Rich addressed it pretty well. Ts are not supposed to make the game better, they're supposed to punish unsporting behavior. They normally make the game better, but if they don't, that doesn't diminish the validity of the T.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by reffish

So, you think he said something, then ask him to repeat it, then whack him? You asked what he said and he answered. I side with the parent on this one. Be careful what you ask for. If he repeats it, the teachable moment is you then telling the kid that is inappropriate and move on. It is true that players don't get to say such things to a ref, but asking him what he said without whacking him the first time is not what we get to do as refs. Get it the first time.

"What did you say" is code for I'll give you chance to informally take back what was said. We've all done it with our kids(or wives and live to tell about it). It's being generous. I might say it if comment was mumbled and I caught the gist of it. IMHO in this case, a T is in order.

Can't agree more with teaching moment. I see it so much with coaches in AAU ball.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Sorry, but if I can hear it, it's not under his breath.

Exactly. Was going to write this myself when I saw you had beaten me to it.

[7IronRef]

Originally Posted by bainsey

It isn't. Read the entire post.

I did. You quoted my comment about it not being disrespectful. Your reference to profanity is in regard to a diff situation. Under one's breath and the statement the player made is hardly worthy of a TF and is difficult to remain consistent on.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by fullor30

"What did you say" is code for I'll give you chance to informally take back what was said. We've all done it with our kids(or wives and live to tell about it). It's being generous. I might say it if comment was mumbled and I caught the gist of it. IMHO in this case, a T is in order.

Can't agree more with teaching moment. I see it so much with coaches in AAU ball.

I agree. While I would never use it, and I think it can only backfire, the OP was giving the kid a chance to unearn the T.
This comment needs to be addressed. If I didn't hear it clearly, I'll likely talk to the coach, "I only heard enough to give you a heads up coach." But if I hear it clearly, whack.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by 7IronRef

Under one's breath and the statement the player made is hardly worthy of a TF and is difficult to remain consistent on.

In your opinion.

Unsporting technical fouls are always going to have a high degree of judgment involved and should take into account the particular Roman province you call games, the level, temperature of the game, etc. I have a hard time criticizing a fellow official for issuing a technical foul without being there.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by 7IronRef

Sounds like over officiating to me.

TF's are supposed to improve the game and I don't see that in this case. So what if a 6th grader thought and said the call was crap (unless he said it loud enough that it could not have been overlooked - which wasn't the case "under his breath"). The player had just fouled out, made a comment, was asked to repeat it by an adult/authority figure, got T'd for it - baited in my opinion.

Let it go, maybe say something to the coach and move on. Remember that at least one person is going to think any call or no-call is crap depending on their POV.

BTW, of course a parent is going to stick up for their child, especially when there was no profanity involved and it wasn't disrepectful.

Wasn't disrespectful? A sixth grader addressing an adult and an official to boot? While not profane 'crap' from a sixth grader should not be part of his/her vocabulary

And by the way, My kids are Catholic and are automatically guilty until proven innocent!

[7IronRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Sorry, but if I can hear it, it's not under his breath. This comment is going to be a T from me in any game I work (I don't work college), getting his fifth foul doesn't give him a free pass. 6th grade game? It would be in the top five easiest calls I've ever made.

I don't care what level anyone works, there is NO WAY you call this every time - you cannot be consistent under the context that this situation was presented. Did you ever play the game?!

Do you really think Dad would have reacted different if the OP had just gone straight to the T? No, Dad just wanted the opportunity to tell the refs how bad he thought they sucked.

I could care less what a parent thinks, their POV is distorted. The OP should have ignored the parent after the game, or simply told the parent it is between the officials and the player, ask your player. Engaging a parent is not going to help things and your have opened the door for further comment whether you intended to or not. It is possible the parent thought his player used more colorful language and was going to talk with his kid, but when he got an explaination, he disagreed. But again, it is his problem.

And as for the "Ts are supposed to make the game better" canard, Rich addressed it pretty well. Ts are not supposed to make the game better, they're supposed to punish unsporting behavior. They normally make the game better, but if they don't, that doesn't diminish the validity of the T.

Agreed, but in the context of the OP this is not a top 5 easiest call on unsporting behavior. That is a difficult standard to maintain.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Welpe

In your opinion.

Unsporting technical fouls are always going to have a high degree of judgment involved and should take into account the particular Roman province you call games, the level, temperature of the game, etc. I have a hard time criticizing a fellow official for issuing a technical foul without being there.

Well said.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by 7IronRef

Agreed, but in the context of the OP this is not a top 5 easiest call on unsporting behavior. That is a difficult standard to maintain.

Then we don't agree. If I was the OP, I would have gone straight to the T. I can tell you that this comment, if I hear it, is a T every time; especially in this context. I'm calling this every time in a high school game.

If you think ringing up an 11 year old for this is over officiating, then we're not going to agree.