stupid kid; stupid parent

[reffish]

So, you think he said something, then ask him to repeat it, then whack him? You asked what he said and he answered. I side with the parent on this one. Be careful what you ask for. If he repeats it, the teachable moment is you then telling the kid that is inappropriate and move on. It is true that players don't get to say such things to a ref, but asking him what he said without whacking him the first time is not what we get to do as refs. Get it the first time.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by reffish

So, you think he said something, then ask him to repeat it, then whack him? You asked what he said and he answered. I side with the parent on this one. Be careful what you ask for. If he repeats it, the teachable moment is you then telling the kid that is inappropriate and move on. It is true that players don't get to say such things to a ref, but asking him what he said without whacking him the first time is not what we get to do as refs. Get it the first time.

Disagree. Personally, I wouldn't have bothered and would have just stuck him, but an official who tries to give him the chance to back down isn't the problem. Letting it go the second time would have been worse.

[Tio]

Agree with Snaq.

If you ask him to repeat it you are baiting him. Either ignore it or T him on the spot. You cannot win with parents at any level. Those after-game conversations rarely go well and should be avoided at all costs.

[Adam]

For the record, I don't advocate ignoring. It needs to be addressed.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Tio

Agree with Snaq.

If you ask him to repeat it you are baiting him. Either ignore it or T him on the spot. You cannot win with parents at any level. Those after-game conversations rarely go well and should be avoided at all costs.

I agree with you. Nothing good can come of asking him to repeat himself. If you're not sure what he said, he just got a freebie. Good on him. If you heard him the first time, whack him and move on. I don't negotiate with players.

[reffish]

Stick him the first time, for sure, or he gets a freebie. As an educator, when you ask the student to repeat something you might have heard, giving him a chance to "back down" (this is now creating an environment of challenges and what teen is going to back down from a challenge {as a parent and middle school and high school teacher, this rarely happens}) don't be surprised on what you hear and especially don't punish the kid when you ask for clarification, just correct and move on. As an official, if you ask for clarification, don't stick the kid for being honest. It may seem weird, but this will build trust on the court and build a rapport with the players. If you are not seeking that and want to, well I am not sure what you are seeking, and want to the "that ref" according to players, then stick the kid when he answers your questions honestly and be satisfied that the kid has learned his lesson, or whatever you are trying to prove.

[Moosie74]

I may say, #40 if you said what I think you said, please don't use that type of language here. No point in asking him to repeat it, nothing good will come from that and given that he's just been hit with his 5th foul he may be upset so you have to give them some room.

Last week I had an 8th grader commit his 5th foul on a nice open field tackle on the dribbler, no other way to describe it, I call the intentional foul, fouler turns to me and says thanks for the doing the game ref, have a great night and he leaves the court smiling. Table confirms 5 fouls, I inform coach and he says, I know, he (the player) already told me.

Yes my partner should have taken all that but he was too busy walking back up the court from trail.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by reffish

Be careful what you ask for.

Be careful what you ask for, because you might just get it.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by reffish

So, you think he said something, then ask him to repeat it, then whack him? You asked what he said and he answered. I side with the parent on this one. Be careful what you ask for. If he repeats it, the teachable moment is you then telling the kid that is inappropriate and move on. It is true that players don't get to say such things to a ref, but asking him what he said without whacking him the first time is not what we get to do as refs. Get it the first time.

"What did you say" is code for I'll give you chance to informally take back what was said. We've all done it with our kids(or wives and live to tell about it). It's being generous. I might say it if comment was mumbled and I caught the gist of it. IMHO in this case, a T is in order.

Can't agree more with teaching moment. I see it so much with coaches in AAU ball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by fullor30

"What did you say" is code for I'll give you chance to informally take back what was said. We've all done it with our kids(or wives and live to tell about it). It's being generous. I might say it if comment was mumbled and I caught the gist of it. IMHO in this case, a T is in order.

Can't agree more with teaching moment. I see it so much with coaches in AAU ball.

I agree. While I would never use it, and I think it can only backfire, the OP was giving the kid a chance to unearn the T.
This comment needs to be addressed. If I didn't hear it clearly, I'll likely talk to the coach, "I only heard enough to give you a heads up coach." But if I hear it clearly, whack.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by fullor30

"What did you say" is code for I'll give you chance to informally take back what was said. We've all done it with our kids(or wives and live to tell about it). It's being generous. I might say it if comment was mumbled and I caught the gist of it. IMHO in this case, a T is in order.

Can't agree more with teaching moment. I see it so much with coaches in AAU ball.

Maybe not everyone is aware of the informal codes you use on the basketball court. If you ask a question you should be expecting a response.

The players options are:

- Refuse to do what you instructed him to do and say nothing.
- Lie to you and say he said something else.
- Truthfully answer you.

You said you do this type of stuff with your kids. Do you want your kids lying to you? Do you want your kids to refuse to do what you told them to do? Or would you rather have them obey you?

Calling a technical foul after asking what was said is a terrible way to handle the situation. You asked a question and it was answered. If you didn't want to hear the answer then you shouldn't have asked the question.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Maybe not everyone is aware of the informal codes you use on the basketball court. If you ask a question you should be expecting a response.

The players options are:

- Refuse to do what you instructed him to do and say nothing.
- Lie to you and say he said something else.
- Truthfully answer you.

You said you do this type of stuff with your kids. Do you want your kids lying to you? Do you want your kids to refuse to do what you told them to do? Or would you rather have them obey you?

Calling a technical foul after asking what was said is a terrible way to handle the situation. You asked a question and it was answered. If you didn't want to hear the answer then you shouldn't have asked the question.

What did you say?

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by fullor30

What did you say?

I was explaining how you don't handle this type of situation well.

[Adam]

I'm sorry, but when I use this tactic on my kids, the answer is, invariably, "I'm sorry." It's not teaching them to lie or any of that garbage, it's reinforcing the fact that their tone, words, or behavior is unacceptable.

Do I use this on the court? No, I'll address it another way (with a T or direct words). But an official who does so is simply making an error in tactic, not baiting the kid. The T is for what the player said the first time, not for repeating it. Repeating it when asked is merely displaying a lack of remorse and reinforcing the decision to ring him up.

[VaTerp]

As someone who worked directly with kids for over 5 years (high school teacher, running youth sports camps, leagues) I think asking, "what did you say" and then assessing a T is TERRIBLE judgement.

You are essentially giving the kid two options: Admit to something we both already know you did and be punished for it or LIE and escape punishment. It doesnt take kids long to figure out lying is the better option for them.

Saying that you are giving a kid a chance to "back down" is just wrong. As a previous poster said its "power tripping" and a misuse of authority. If the kid lies about what he said he's not "backing down." He's lying to avoid punishment AND he's gotten away with saying something inappropriate without suffering any consequences or learning anything (other than that its ok to lie to avoid punisment).

The appropriate options IMO are to:

A) Assess T when you hear it
B) Tell the kid something to the effect of, "I didnt quite hear what you said but if I even think I hear you say something disrespectful or inappropriate again you'll be watching this game from the parking lot."

If you do make the mistake of asking, "what did you say," and the kid answers honestly I think at that point you have to "back down" and then say something like "don't say that again or I'm tossing you." Otherwise the kid learns nothing but lying and avoiding punishment is better than honesty and being punished. And it looks HIGHLY UNPROFESSIONAL to coaches and parents to see an official engage a kid in conversation and then whack them as a result.

In Varsity games if I hear a kid mumble things under their breath I either ignore it or say something like, "#12 play ball..." They usually get the message. On the rare occasion that I do a sub varsity or youth rec games, I have pretty much zero tolerance for "back talk." I find that if you don't nip it in the bud early a lot of these kids feel they can give a running commentary of the officiating and it irritates the .... out of me. I'll tell this kids before the game, "You're here to play, I'm here to officiate. Let's not get that confused." Whacking the first kid that runs his mouth usually gets the message across but I remember giving 5 Ts in 3 games on a rec league Saturday last year.