Captains meeting

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

As opposed to Mr. Closed-minded.

I'm as closed minded as you folks on this issue. You think I'm wrong, I think you're wrong. What's the difference?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

On the rare occasion when I might know both coaches equally well, I possibly would address them as "Dave" & "John". But, if I do, I run the risk of showing one coach favoritism (perception) if I speak with one more often than the other. "Coach" never gets you in trouble. They can call me "Gap", though, especially if they are requesting time out in a loud gym.

That is why I almost never use their first name. I have done it, but it is probably so rare that I can count on one hand over my career when it happens. And I always feel uneasy if I think to use a coach's first name.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I'm as closed minded as you folks on this issue. You think I'm wrong, I think you're wrong. What's the difference?

I can only speak for me. I did not say you were wrong. I said what I do. You and I could work together and if you use only your first name it would not bother me. I would just say my full name and we would keep it moving. This is not something I would get upset with as I would not care how you pack your cloths in your bag or what kind of bag you bring to the game. If it makes you happy, do what makes you happy.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I'm as closed minded as you folks on this issue. You think I'm wrong, I think you're wrong. What's the difference?

I never said you were wrong in your approach. I stated what I do.

You are the one who said anyone who introduces themselves to children as "Mr. ***" is stuffy, idiotic, and unapproachable.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Hello, Mr. Unapproachable.

I do not want to be approached by players, that is what their coach is for. And I hardly have a problem talking to coaches. But considering the things I read you say about situations, I certainly cannot be seen as any more unapproachable than you are (and I do not mean that in a bad way before someone takes it that way). You put up with a lot less crap than I do.

Peace

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We are talking about players; we are not talking about coaches. But if you need that to be understood, yes coaches can call me by my first name as that is about the only way to identify each official. Coaches often do say, "Ref" or "Sir" many times as well. And they are adults in every case when I work as well. Then again I still do not refer to them by their first name. I did say this previously in the thread as well.

Really? Because that's not what you said....

I love Rich, but this I totally agree with you on this one. Rich started the "I am Rich" thing.

For the record I will say again, I always say my full name to captains and coaches. They are not allowed to call me by my first name in this setting.

Peace

So coaches can call you by your full name but not just your first name?

Maybe that is where you are, but actually that is not always the case or in the case where I am or with most that I have worked with. I work college in all of my 3 sports which includes baseball and I almost never refer to a coach by their first name. The only caveat to that is when I know both coaches very well. When I do not know them very well I will never call either coach in a game by their first name. And in many cases with partners they either call them "Skip" or "Coach...last name." And funny thing about this in my area there is a big time basketball official that has told people at camps and this came up in my pre-game conversations with an official on Monday, he said, "Never call a coach by their first name no matter how well you know them." And this came from a person that has worked games for some of the most famous coaches at the college level.

Peace

I have worked with some good umpires as well, and they always use first names and coaches use first names in return. I don't want to be called "ump" or "blue" by a college coach, so first names are more personal.

In high school, it depends on how well I know the coach.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not want to be approached by players, that is what their coach is for. And I hardly have a problem talking to coaches. But considering the things I read you say about situations, I certainly cannot be seen as any more unapproachable than you are (and I do not mean that in a bad way before someone takes it that way). You put up with a lot less crap than I do.

Peace

You won't talk to players on the court/field at all? Even if they're asking a question and being polite?

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I'm as closed minded as you folks on this issue. You think I'm wrong, I think you're wrong. What's the difference?

False.

Nobody has said it's "idotic" to introduce themselves by first name only.

Nobody but you has stated that someone is "unapproachable" because they don't let kids call them by their first name.

I talk to players all the time and allow them to talk to me as long as they do so in a respectful manner. I'm as approachable as they come and I don't allow high school players to call me by my first name.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not want to be approached by players, that is what their coach is for. And I hardly have a problem talking to coaches. But considering the things I read you say about situations, I certainly cannot be seen as any more unapproachable than you are (and I do not mean that in a bad way before someone takes it that way). You put up with a lot less crap than I do.

Peace

I actually want to be approachable to players, provided it's not to whine about individual calls.

I'm a lot more mellow than I used to be the first 15 years I worked. I had two situations this week where I would've whacked the coach/player 10 years ago. The first was an assistant coach that accused me of fouling out a player (on a call I didn't even make) during a timeout and instead of engaging him, I turned my back and walked away. The second was a kid who threw his arms in the air and disagreed pretty vehemently after I called a foul on him and I had a few words with him rather than calling a technical -- as I reported, his coach told me "I'm sorry about that, I'll take care of him." The other coach wanted a technical called, but then again of course he did.

I suppose I seem pretty inflexible on the first name thing and there's a chance I'm intentionally winding people up on this thread , but mainly it's just a quick chuckle under my breath on the court and I could easily work with Jeff and others anywhere. I'll admit it and let it go -- it's really not that big a deal.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Really? Because that's not what you said....

So coaches can call you by your full name but not just your first name?

I know you can really late to this conversation. I do not need to re-post them, but I said previously in this very thread that I do not allow players to call me by my first name and coaches can because they are adults. All you have to do is look back in this thread and that will be understood. I get why you were confused in the comments you quoted if you did not read any other comments, but if that is something you want to debate what I meant, then you will have to do that by yourself. Hope that clears it up for you.

Originally Posted by zm1283

I have worked with some good umpires as well, and they always use first names and coaches use first names in return. I don't want to be called "ump" or "blue" by a college coach, so first names are more personal.

In high school, it depends on how well I know the coach.

I am not out there to be personal, I am out there to be professional. If you want a personal relationship that is your right, but not my objective when I work any game. And as I said before (if you paid attention), I do not know all coaches that well. You can go to the same school every other year and there is a new coach. I am not great with names unless I have seen you or had extensive conversations with you and that almost never happens with coaches. So I want to call them by their title. They did after all earn that.

Like I said before, do you. If it works for you I still will do what works for me.

Peace

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It does not really matter to what you say in the introduction, but I want to make it clear I am not their peer. I save the first name to people I meet socially. I am not talking to players and even coaches in this situation socially. And it is not unusual to meet up with coaches socially in many situations in my experience. Even when you know a coach I still introduce myself as if we have never met before a game.

Peace

FWIW, I think the stripes are what make it clear you aren't their peer.

Originally Posted by zm1283

You don't let coaches call you by your first name during the game? What do you do if they call you by that? Ask them to stop?

In college baseball (And professional for that matter), umpires and coaches/managers use first names. I work college games, so it kind of carries over to basketball for me.

There are guys I work soccer with who will yellow card a coach for using their first names. But that's a bit more about soccer culture perhaps.

I've gone back and forth across the years. Currently, I use my first name only with players and first and last with coaches. I expect both to address me by ref, referee or sir and I address them by number or coach, respectively.

I only make an issue of a coach calling me by name if it happens more than infrequently and I then ask him to stop referring to me by my first name. (The reason of course is that it does imply familiarity which can give the appearance of the lack of neutrality.)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I actually want to be approachable to players, provided it's not to whine about individual calls.

When do players talk to us seriously when they are not whining? That is the vast majority of the time they say anything to us unless we address them first. And even then I do not call them by their name, I call them by their number. And there are many players I know who they are based on the status the media gives them.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I suppose I seem pretty inflexible on the first name thing and there's a chance I'm intentionally winding people up on this thread , but mainly it's just a quick chuckle under my breath on the court and I could easily work with Jeff and others anywhere. I'll admit it and let it go -- it's really not that big a deal.

It isn't a big deal at all which is why I said if you did one thing I would not bat an eye and do what I always do.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Guess I work with a lot of idiotic and stuffy people...who spend 6 out of every 24 months in the Middle East and Southwest Asia or who were raised by stuffy and idiotic parents and grand-parents.

FWIW, I know idiotic and stuffy people who spend 6 months out of 24 in the Middle East and SW Asia. I do thank them for their service.

I also know sensible people who don't spend any time in the service.

Oh -- put me on the side of "first name" (I don't think a game is the same as a social occasion, so different etiquette rules can apply), but it doesn't bother me either way.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

FWIW, I think the stripes are what make it clear you aren't their peer.

And that is naive if you think that is the case all the time. There are players that feel they can talk to me because we share some features that they will not say things to others that wear the same stripes. So the color of our uniform does not always decide how folks treat or talk to us.

Peace

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We are talking about players; we are not talking about coaches. But if you need that to be understood, yes coaches can call me by my first name as that is about the only way to identify each official.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

For the record I will say again, I always say my full name to captains and coaches. They are not allowed to call me by my first name in this setting

You might just want to be more clear next time. This post clearly states that you don't allow coaches to call you by your first name.