Backcourt Violation

[newish ref]

Hi Guys,
I think I have this figured out but the language in the book is a little confusing to me so I thought I would confirm with the experts.

Team A has the ball in their frontcourt, Team B tips a pass, that is then tipped by Team A, and into the back court area, Team A player retrieves it in the backcourt area.

No violation?

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by newish ref

Hi Guys,Team A has the ball in their frontcourt, Team B tips a pass, that is then tipped by Team A, and into the back court area, Team A player retrieves it in the backcourt area.
No violation?

No. Violation.
Rule 9-9-1, in spite of whatever confusing verbage it may contain, states the principle sometimes called "Last to Touch, First to Touch", which would be a backcourt violation, assuming your Team A has both player and team control in the front court before all this happens.
If the player from your Team B was the last to touch it, then it would not be a violation.
(2011-12 Casebook 9.9.1C is in error on this or a similar point, apparently; cf. thread from about a month ago on this; or is the casebook correct but the rule revised so that it doesn't match the casebook anymore...I can't recall.)
Right?

[Toren]

Originally Posted by newish ref

Hi Guys,
I think I have this figured out but the language in the book is a little confusing to me so I thought I would confirm with the experts.

Team A has the ball in their frontcourt, Team B tips a pass, that is then tipped by Team A, and into the back court area, Team A player retrieves it in the backcourt area.

No violation?

When does Team A tip the ball?

If Team B causes the ball to go into the backcourt and Team A retrieves it then no violation.

If Team A causes the ball to go into the backcourt then they have violated because they had player and team control in the frontcourt and then caused the ball to go into the backcourt. A Tip by Team B doesn't end the control that Team A had.

[newish ref]

Team A, who has team and player control, throws a pass in their frontcourt that is tipped by Team B THEN tipped by Team A and flies into the backcourt (all in the same flight), then Team A retrieves in the backcourt.

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by newish ref

Team A, who has team and player control, throws a pass in their frontcourt that is tipped by Team B THEN tipped by Team A and flies into the backcourt (all in the same flight), then Team A retrieves in the backcourt.

Violation.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by newish ref

Team A, who has team and player control, throws a pass in their frontcourt that is tipped by Team B THEN tipped by Team A and flies into the backcourt (all in the same flight), then Team A retrieves in the backcourt.

Violation, even though 98% of coaches think they get a pass (and will helpfully make the "tipped ball" signal for you) if B touched the ball somewhere in there.

[APG]

Originally Posted by newish ref

Team A, who has team and player control, throws a pass in their frontcourt that is tipped by Team B THEN tipped by Team A and flies into the backcourt (all in the same flight), then Team A retrieves in the backcourt.

Backcourt violation. Criteria a backcourt violation:

1. Team control (and player control first if coming from a throw-in). Check
2. Ball achieves a frontcourt position. Check
3. Team in control is the last to touch the ball before it gains a backcourt position. Check
4. Team in control is the first to touch the ball after it gained a backcourt status. Check

[Toren]

Originally Posted by newish ref

Team A, who has team and player control, throws a pass in their frontcourt that is tipped by Team B THEN tipped by Team A and flies into the backcourt (all in the same flight), then Team A retrieves in the backcourt.

Just like everyone else has pointed out, this would be a violation. Team A has control, Team A caused the ball to go into the backcourt, Team A is the first to touch the ball.

Now if Team B had been the last to touch the ball, then Team A is okay to retrieve the ball without violation.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Toren

Just like everyone else has pointed out, this would be a violation. Team A has control, Team A caused the ball to go into the backcourt, Team A is the first to touch the ball.

Careful! That's not why.

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Backcourt violation. Criteria a backcourt violation:

1. Team control (and player control first if coming from a throw-in). Check
2. Ball achieves a frontcourt position. Check
3. Team in control is the last to touch the ball before it gains a backcourt position. Check
4. Team in control is the first to touch the ball after it gained a backcourt status. Check

This is very important to realize. If the OP's scenario occurred during a throw-in, then no BC violation.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Toren

Just like everyone else has pointed out, this would be a violation. Team A has control, Team A caused the ball to go into the backcourt, Team A is the first to touch the ball.

Originally Posted by mbyron

Careful! That's not why.

Now I'm confused. Why?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by tref

Now I'm confused. Why?

Causing the ball to go into the backcourt is not a violation at any time. It is a poor choice of words.

Keep with the tried and true 4-point check...

1. Does A have team control (the old team control...started when there is player control inbounds)?
2. Did the ball return to the backcourt after obtaining frontcourt status?
3. Was team A the last to touch the ball BEFORE the point in time in step #2.
4. Was team A the first to touch the ball AFTER point in time in step #2.

NOTE: The location of the touches in steps 3 & 4 are not relevant.

If you answer yes to all 4 questions, you have a backcourt violation...if you answer no to any of them, you do not have a backcourt violation.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

This is very important to realize. If the OP's scenario occurred during a throw-in, then no BC violation.

Don't confuse the issue with team control for a throw-in. It has nothing to do with backcourt violations.

9-9-1 requires team control be established inbounds. Talking about throw-in team control only screws things up, when it has nothing to do with it.

[DrPete]

Is anyone going to address these controversial situations:

1. where A1 is near the division line and makes a pass that B1 (while standing in A's front court) bats the ball back towards A1 so that A1 catches the ball in the air while he is still in the back court.

or 2. where A1 is in the back court near the division line, makes a pass cross court towards A2 who is also in the back court, but B1 (who is standing in the frontcourt) deflects the ball, but A2 still catches the ball in the air.

What's the correct call in these two situations. I don't want to join in the argument, I just like to start one and sit back and watch !!!

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by DrPete

Is anyone going to address these controversial situations:

1. where A1 is near the division line and makes a pass that B1 (while standing in A's front court) bats the ball back towards A1 so that A1 catches the ball in the air while he is still in the back court.

Assuming A1 threw the pass from the backcourt into the frontcourt where B1 batted it back to A1 in the backcourt, there is no violation. Team A never had player control in the frontcourt. That one is not controversial...it's easy.

or 2. where A1 is in the back court near the division line, makes a pass cross court towards A2 who is also in the back court, but B1 (who is standing in the frontcourt) deflects the ball, but A2 still catches the ball in the air.

What's the correct call in these two situations. I don't want to join in the argument, I just like to start one and sit back and watch !!!

A still never had player control in the frontcourt, so this isn't a violation either the way you've described it. Try again.