Just thinking...

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

We had a varsity game the other day (NFHS rules). We got called for a backcourt violation because our throw-in went from the frontcourt endline, tipped one of our players in the frontcourt, where we retrieved it in the backcourt.

I was told by the ref essentially, that with the new team control rule on throw-ins, all the requirements for a backcourt violation were met.

But they weren't met: the ball was not yet in player control in the frontcourt (9-9-1, 4-13-1). No violation.

The player throwing in the ball does not have player control in the frontcourt if he or she is out of bounds.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

We had a varsity game the other day (NFHS rules). We got called for a backcourt violation because our throw-in went from the frontcourt endline, tipped one of our players in the frontcourt, where we retrieved it in the backcourt.

I was told by the ref essentially, that with the new team control rule on throw-ins, all the requirements for a backcourt violation were met.

I agreed with him, that the new rules as written, seem to say he is correct. But, can I tell him next time, that Snaqwells said the committee said they intended it to only apply to fouls? Will he believe me? Who is correct?

Originally Posted by mbyron

But they weren't met: the ball was not yet in player control in the frontcourt (9-9-1, 4-13-1). No violation.

The player throwing in the ball does not have player control in the frontcourt if he or she is out of bounds.

mbyron's rule citation covers this play as to why it is not a violation. The new wording in 9-9-1 also now unequivocally makes null and void an old interp involving a pass from A1 from the BC to the FC that is tipped by B1 in the FC and then caught on the fly by A1 in the BC.

What the new wording did do was make it legal for A1 in the BC to throw a pass that is tipped by A2 in the FC and then retrieved by A1 in the BC. This should have, however, should have been rectified in 9-9-2 but wording of that article is pretty bad. This apparently is when you need to break out the PowerPoint slide.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

We had a varsity game the other day (NFHS rules). We got called for a backcourt violation because our throw-in went from the frontcourt endline, tipped one of our players in the frontcourt, where we retrieved it in the backcourt.

I was told by the ref essentially, that with the new team control rule on throw-ins, all the requirements for a backcourt violation were met.

I agreed with him, that the new rules as written, seem to say he is correct. But, can I tell him next time, that Snaqwells said the committee said they intended it to only apply to fouls? Will he believe me? Who is correct?

And this is the problem with the change. Smart officials who actually thought through the ramifications of the rule changes but haven't, for whatever reason, seen the powerpoint.

Besides, doesn't the new rule require PC inbounds before it can be called? Book's in my bag, and I'm getting ready to head to a game.

[Coach Bill]

So, I should tell the ref, that although there is now Team Control on a throw-in, there was no Player Control in the frontcourt, which is now required for a backcourt violation. And, that is a new rule, too, and is located under the section on backcourt violations???

[APG]

NFHS Basketball Interpretations (2011-2012)

SITUATION 5: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her frontcourt. A1’s pass to A2, who is in the frontcourt standing near the division line, is high and deflects off A2’s hand and goes into Team A’s backcourt. A2 is then the first to control the ball in Team A’s backcourt.
RULING: Legal. There is no backcourt violation since player and team control had not yet been established in Team A’s frontcourt before the ball went into Team A’s backcourt. The throw-in ends when A2 legally touches the ball, but the backcourt count does not start until A2 gains control in his/her backcourt. (4-12-2d; 9-9)

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

NFHS Basketball Interpretations (2011-2012)

SITUATION 5: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her frontcourt. A1’s pass to A2, who is in the frontcourt standing near the division line, is high and deflects off A2’s hand and goes into Team A’s backcourt. A2 is then the first to control the ball in Team A’s backcourt.
RULING: Legal. There is no backcourt violation since player and team control had not yet been established in Team A’s frontcourt before the ball went into Team A’s backcourt. The throw-in ends when A2 legally touches the ball, but the backcourt count does not start until A2 gains control in his/her backcourt. (4-12-2d; 9-9)

Thank you. That's perfect.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Refsmitty

Now that there is team control during a throw in - shouldn't that mean that a throw in from the front court to the back court is a violation? One that is tipped in the front court and is reganed in the back court should be a violation as well - correct?

We had an association meeting Sunday and dicussed fouls during the throw in but not this.

Thoughts?

Regardless of the fact that the rules, as actually written, do say exactly that, the comment that were published with the change indicate that ONLY fouls are affected by the change. They should have written the rule a LOT better such that it would clearly only relate to fouls but they didn't.

What they did was muddy the water such that some editor, in 10-15 years, will read the rules, not being aware of the comments on the change, and declare we've been calling it wrong.

[SNIPERBBB]

You have to have player control to have a BC violation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

You have to have player control to have a BC violation.

So when A1, dribbling in the frontcourt, picks up his dribble in his frontcourt, holds the ball in his frontcourt, and then throws an errant pass to A2, who is standing with both feet in his backcourt, and then the ball hits A2 in the knee, and bounces away, you're not calling backcourt because A2 doesn't have player control?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So when A1, dribbling in the frontcourt, picks up his dribble in his frontcourt, holds the ball in his frontcourt, and then throws an errant pass to A2, who is standing with both feet in his backcourt, and then the ball hits A2 in the knee, and bounces away, you're not calling backcourt because A2 doesn't have player control?

Yes. That's exactly what he meant. [/sarcasm]

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

You have to have player control to have a BC violation.

What you really meant is that before a BC violation is possible, there must have been player control inbounds.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

What you really meant is that before a BC violation is possible, there must have been player control inbounds.

Correct.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

What you really meant is that before a BC violation is possible, there must have been player control inbounds.

Yep. And, didn't the rule used to be that player control, by definition, was inbounds?

I wish the NFHS (and NCAA for that matter) would include the deletions in the rules book -- with a strikeout -- to make it more clear what has changed.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yep. And, didn't the rule used to be that player control, by definition, was inbounds?

I wish the NFHS (and NCAA for that matter) would include the deletions in the rules book -- with a strikeout -- to make it more clear what has changed.

Yes, but the wording of the backcourt rule as changed to reflect the team control foul on a throwin situation, it implies that their must be player control in the backcourt to have a violation when all that is required is that there be team control inbounds...which starts when a player has control (inbounds) but continues even when no player has control.