Got me thinking

[UmpTTS43]

While watching a game today, I was sitting with a friend of mine and he was asking me rules questions. Then we see this. Batted ball goes straight back, hits catchers mask and goes straight up about 10 ft in the air. The ball lands on the ground, foul ball. Then he asks me, "If the catcher would have caught that is that an out?"
"Nope, foul ball."
"Why?"
"It hit his mask first."
"What if the ball goes up first, like a regular pop foul, and the ball hits his mask while he is wearing it and he catches it before it hits the ground?"
"Out and the catcher is a dumba** for not taking his mask off."
"What's the difference?"

Obviously the ball made contact with the mask prior to the catch in both situations, but different results. It started to make me think about how I would justify a no catch call on the first sitch if the coach wanted an explanation per the rules. After searching my library, no J/R however, it was very difficult to find a rule to justify my call, but this is what I came up with:

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher’s glove or hand.

By using the "sharp and direct" and "rebound," albeit off of the mask, I have formed my interpretation of the sitch and feel I could sell this to a reasonable coach.

Any thoughts or opinions? It's just my luck that J/R would cover this and make me look like the catcher leaving his mask on to catch a pop fly.

Every call should be explainable per the rules, hence my rant.

[johnnyg08]

foul tip has to touch glove first.

[Dave Reed]

Your interpretation and reasoning is correct.

Here's what J/R says: "A nicked pitch that initially strikes something other than the catcher's glove or hand (e.g. the ground, batter, umpire, mask, protector) cannot be a foul tip; it is simply a nick and foul."

NFHS 5-1-1d says: " Ball becomes dead immediately when:.....d. a foul ball (2-16-1):.....2. goes directly from the bat to the catcher’s protector, mask or person without first touching the catcher’s glove or hand;"
Note that 2-16-1 defines a foul ball as one " that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or a player or any object foreign to the natural ground;"

The NCAA rule is similar to OBR.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

foul tip has to touch glove first.

Can you cite the relevent rule?

Here's what J/R says: "A nicked pitch that initially strikes something other than the catcher's glove or hand (e.g. the ground, batter, umpire, mask, protector) cannot be a foul tip; it is simply a nick and foul."

Like I said ... doh!

I might want to get me one of them J/R rule thingy books.

[bobbybanaduck]

2.00, definition of a foul tip. you don't need a j/r, you need to not neglect the early part of the rule book. start at the beginning, sir.

[bobbybanaduck]

and, to go back to your OP, the difference is (when explaining to your friend) one is a foul tip, which, by rule, has to go sharp and direct to the catcher's glove or hand first. the other is a fly ball, which, by rule, is still considered "in flight" when it deflects off of the catcher's mask.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

and, to go back to your OP, the difference is (when explaining to your friend) one is a foul tip, which, by rule, has to go sharp and direct to the catcher's glove or hand first. the other is a fly ball, which, by rule, is still considered "in flight" when it deflects off of the catcher's mask.

Not to pick hairs, but in the original op, the ball went sharp and direct into the catcher's helmet then straight up. I needed a rules interp that killed the ball the moment the ball hit the mask. I know what you are saying though.

[UmpTTS43]

We are not dealing with a foul tip senario. We are dealing with a situation in which the ball hits something else other than the glove first. I was just looking for a rule or interp that defines the status of the ball when this happens. Ironically, the answer seems to be within the definition of a foul tip. I guess I was looking for an adequate "foul ball" definition. One that might include:

Foul Ball .... or a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat and first contacts the catcher's person or equipment, other than his glove or hands.

[SanDiegoSteve]

From Rule 2.00:

A FLY BALL is a batted ball that goes high in the air in flight.

A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possesion in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession.

IN FLIGHT describes a batted, thrown, or pitched ball which has not yet touched the ground or some object other than a fielder.

A FIELDER is any defensive player.

The PERSON of a player or and umpire is any part of his body, his clothing or his equipment.

************************************************** ******

Therefore, a fly ball can be caught by the catcher after it hits his mask, which is part of his person. He just can't use his mask to make the catch, but it can bounce off of it.

[Dave Reed]

Steve,
Nice quotes and logic. The only thing is, the same rules and logic would show (incorrectly, we all know) that a batted ball which rebounds directly off the catcher's mask and is then gloved by the catcher is also an out. The ball became foul when it hit the mask, is still in flight (yes, it is still in flight, just like when the ball strikes the mask on the way down), and it was caught.

Of course, there is this other rule, regrettably mis-classified under the definition of a foul tip, that says the ball can't be legally caught. How does a rules novice or "purist" know which rule takes precedence?

See, if you know the rules, and you read a poorly written rule, it is easy to interpret it as confirming what you already know to be true. But if you're not sure about the rule, and the language is muddy, another source is helpful. In this case J/R is better than OBR, and FED makes the rule explicit.

An aside to bobbybanaduck: You accuse the OP of neglecting the early part of the rulebook. He is too polite to point out that he quoted and bolded the rule in question in his very first post. Obviously, he didn't neglect the early part.

[UmpTTS43]

Thanks Dave. I think you are the only one that understands my post. I thought that I explained it adequately. Your interp from the J/R was the exact thing I was looking for. That and to spark some intelligent conversation.

These types of plays demonstrate that the umpire needs to have an accepted interp when the coach's only reference to the rules is the OBR.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

Steve,
Nice quotes and logic. The only thing is, the same rules and logic would show (incorrectly, we all know) that a batted ball which rebounds directly off the catcher's mask and is then gloved by the catcher is also an out. The ball became foul when it hit the mask, is still in flight (yes, it is still in flight, just like when the ball strikes the mask on the way down), and it was caught.

I didn't address the foul tip/foul ball issue in my post. I was only showing that you can catch a fly ball after it hits a catcher's mask. The same rules and logic do not apply to a batted ball which rebounds directly off the catcher's mask. The definition of foul tip takes care of this situation, and distinguishes itself from the fly ball interpretation:

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove or hand.

Therefore, the rule which applies to a fly ball hitting equipment, and the rule pertaining to a sharp and direct batted ball hitting equipment, are two separate rulings.

Is this logic just as sound?

[Nigel Tufnel]

Don't engage in rules conversations except for another blue.

Set your "friends" straight with common sense rules interps.

Act like you've been there, and then tell'em its their turn to buy.

(then sneak away and check the obr, just in case)

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove or hand.

UmpTT - I am with ya bud, posted this exact same thing a month or so ago and was like you, looking for a rule ref to back up my understanding of the call. NFHS is clear but you can't quote that when playing OBR. And the problem I have with OBR is just what Steve quotes - the definition of a foul tip ceases to apply in your OP as soon as you get to the clause about "the catcher's hands." Everything after that in the FT definition would seem to apply only if the batted ball meets the first criteria (catcher's hands). Since the batted ball DID NOT go sharp and direct to the catcher's hands, you would think it now is classified as a Foul Ball because it touched something in foul territory (catcher's mask). And I can't find anything in OBR that says that a foul BALL is dead when it strikes a catcher's equipment - otherwise, that second portion of your OP (hits the mask on the way down) would kill it.

So we are left with adding to the Foul Tip definition isothat a batted ball that goes sharp and direct and touches anything (catcher, umpire, fence, bird, etc.) but the catcher's hands, is dead. Ya think OBR could edit that in during the next edition?

Did you all go to law school or something?