Just a Word of Caution...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Unless I missed something this was not a "youth game" from the standpoint of some organization running the game. This was a middle school game which to me always means that game is being played under the jurisdiction of the school or school district and they are playing at the school or a building they control. My comments about professionalism have nothing to do with a travel league or some league that is not a school-sanctioned event. But I am sure every school has some facilities that faculty can go where the students cannot, especially in this day and age. And if that is not the case, then that should be known to those going to work games.

Peace

MS games = youth games.

In fact, in Oregon, I don't think there are any MS that sponsor teams at all. The MS's got out of that business a LONG time ago. There are often independent operations that conduct business in connection with a school but the connection is very loose.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

MS games = youth games.

In fact, in Oregon, I don't think there are any MS that sponsor teams at all. The MS's got out of that business a LONG time ago. There are often independent operations that conduct business in connection with a school but the connection is very loose.

At least in Texas, I consider everything below 7th grade (and in Texas middle school is 6th-8th grades) as youth that's the earliest that kids are allowed to try out for school sports. Before then, it's all independent organizations.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

At least in Texas, I consider everything below 7th grade (and in Texas middle school is 6th-8th grades) as youth that's the earliest that kids are allowed to try out for school sports. Before then, it's all independent organizations.

I consider ANY less than Freshman as youth...even if it were affiliated with a school (and MS here is 7th-8th...as was also the case anywhere else I've lived....6th and below is elementary/grade school).

[Texas Aggie]

They better give me a room somewhere or I am not working. This is a choice.//
There are some areas where if an official makes this "choice," he will be labeled high maintenance and a prima donna (sp?)

That's just plain stupid.

Is it high maintenance or being a prima donna to demand that the court be free of debris and water leaks? What about the baskets being properly secured? Speaking of security, what about proper security for the officials -- whatever that may be? How about demanding that the teams wear proper uniforms, the coaches abide by the rules, and the clock run on properly?

If you're satisfied with what's being offered by the school in the situation described here, that's fine. But don't criticize those who are not. A locker room demand is NOT unreasonable for basketball. Baseball, softball, and soccer may be a little different due to the location of the field, but basketball si an indoor sport where most teams have access to their own locker rooms to change. Officials should have the same courtesy.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I consider ANY less than Freshman as youth...even if it were affiliated with a school (and MS here is 7th-8th...as was also the case anywhere else I've lived....6th and below is elementary/grade school).

My daughter is in 6th grade, which is middle school in Colorado. Basketball, however, is not available until 7th grade at her school. She has done swimming and (gasp) soccre, but a couple of sports are only available at 7th and 8th grade levels. It's all, essentially, intramural for the 6th graders.

Regardless, in-season ball, sponsored by schools (middle and high), is always a different animal than organizations which rent the facilities.

Either way (back to the discussion), even with school sponsored events, not all the restrooms are accessible during game nights. Some schools are able to close off everything not in the immediate vicinity of the gym, which may mean staff restrooms are locked up and off limits to the general public. That doesn't mean someone can't open one up, but you can't just walk in.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

That's just plain stupid.

Is it high maintenance or being a prima donna to demand that the court be free of debris and water leaks? What about the baskets being properly secured? Speaking of security, what about proper security for the officials -- whatever that may be? How about demanding that the teams wear proper uniforms, the coaches abide by the rules, and the clock run on properly?

If you're satisfied with what's being offered by the school in the situation described here, that's fine. But don't criticize those who are not. A locker room demand is NOT unreasonable for basketball. Baseball, softball, and soccer may be a little different due to the location of the field, but basketball si an indoor sport where most teams have access to their own locker rooms to change. Officials should have the same courtesy.

I wasn't criticizing anyone for not wanting to accept it. I was taking exception to one who criticized those who felt, for whatever reason, they had to accept the conditions as they were. Personally, I'm not in a position where I have to make that choice. When I was, I did one season of ms ball and stopped due to pay issues, but I wasn't about to criticize the officials who were working for that pay without a lockerroom to use.

My statement about a prima dona was in response to the proverbial official who shows up to a ms game demanding an office to change in when it's not part of the agreed-upon accomodations made with the association; and then refuses to work the game when his demands aren't met.

The fact is, it's something that has to be negotiated rather than demanded by individual officials.

The OP is, if the association leadership is smart, a great opportunity to discuss the issue with the schools.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I guess this statement came directly from me? Oh, if you cannot read correctly, this was in the email that was referenced in very first post of this thread from an assignor not in my area.



Hmmmmmmmm, interesting. Is that not pretty much the exact statement I made previously?

I better not ever hear you tell others what to they should do, because after all that would be your standards right?

Peace

I wasn't directing that part at you. It was just a general statement.

The gist of the thread was you getting on your high horse about middle school games and how anyone who goes dressed is unprofessional, when in reality there are assignors who are fine with officials going to afternoon MS games dressed.

We all know you wouldn't work MS games, and especially MS games where you might have to go dressed. They are well beneath you, we get it.

Why is it that every time a prolonged argument happens on this board, you are involved?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

I wasn't directing that part at you. It was just a general statement.

The gist of the thread was you getting on your high horse about middle school games and how anyone who goes dressed is unprofessional, when in reality there are assignors who are fine with officials going to afternoon MS games dressed.

I did? I guess you did not read the OP or the comments about being accused of being a sex offender for what officials were doing in the parking lot. And then I guess you did not read the many other posts of people saying what they wear or would wear to games in this thread and never having worked a game at that level where they did not have a locker room provided by the school. Actually since I have been here a lot longer than you have, I think I know probably a little more of what is standard across the country. Most people's standards do not change with MS games of any kind. Actually most take exception if you treat these games lesser than a HS game in any way. How about this, stick around a little while and you might notice some things.

Originally Posted by zm1283

We all know you wouldn't work MS games, and especially MS games where you might have to go dressed. They are well beneath you, we get it.

How do you explain I worked a IESA (Illinois Elementary School Association) Regional and IESA Sectional about a year ago on back to back weekends? And I drove an hour for one of those games and about 30 good minutes to the other in rural Illinois. Wanna know what I wore to the game? I wore the very same thing I wear going to a HS games. Wanna know what my partner wore, the very same thing he wears to a HS game (he was one of my HS partners). And if you think it was jeans and a T-shirt, you would be wrong. I wore a nice shirt with a collar and dress pants and dress shoes. I shined my officiating shoes and wore the same jacket on the floor that I do when working any other HS game. We got to those games about an hour before tip off. But hey, I guess that is what you do when a game is beneath you right? Actually it is kind of hard to work any MS game when you teach a class, run an association meeting and work another sport both HS and college all during the fall. Also some of us get other levels of games than what is at the HS game. I do not know about you, but I am not turning down games that not only make more money or are closer to my house to work a MS game. But hey, you know right?

Originally Posted by zm1283

Why is it that every time a prolonged argument happens on this board, you are involved?

Really? I will have to keep that in mind the next time I read about 10 pages of debates over if a backcourt violation or a debate over tax returns I guess I must have been involved in those too? Actually if you were paying any damn attention you might see I hardly post in most topics as they have been done before multiple times.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

MS games = youth games.

In fact, in Oregon, I don't think there are any MS that sponsor teams at all. The MS's got out of that business a LONG time ago. There are often independent operations that conduct business in connection with a school but the connection is very loose.

Well in Illinois we have two state sanctioned bodies depending on where you are located in the state one is the IESA and in the southern part they have one that also runs a state tournament in multiple sports and crowns champions in both 7th and 8th grades. The Illinois Elementary School Association covers most of the state and a representative attends the official's conference that is held every year by the IHSA to inform officials of the differences for their sports to what is offered at the IHSA level. I do not consider that "youth" as it is more organized and you cannot work IESA games without being an IHSA licensed official. It is semantics, but these games are not like AAU or some local league where many people show up with multiple teams. IESA games in my experience are at local schools and run the same way as any HS or college game. You show up to the school, you get a locker room and you have security or someone takes you back to your locker room at halftime and after the game. And in many cases you have a shower if you choose to use one. Now in the current area I live it is a little different as there are many more MS games but not all under the same jurisdiction.

Peace

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did? I guess you did not read the OP or the comments about being accused of being a sex offender for what officials were doing in the parking lot. And then I guess you did not read the many other posts of people saying what they wear or would wear to games in this thread and never having worked a game at that level where they did not have a locker room provided by the school. Actually since I have been here a lot longer than you have, I think I know probably a little more of what is standard across the country. Most people's standards do not change with MS games of any kind. Actually most take exception if you treat these games lesser than a HS game in any way. How about this, stick around a little while and you might notice some things.

Oh yes, the old "I've been on a message board longer so I know best" routine. Who said standards change with MS games? Going to the game dressed because it starts at 3:00 and you don't have time to get there an hour early to change doesn't mean you aren't going to work as hard as you do in a HS game. In some areas, this one included, that is the way it is. The assignor will take anyone he can get to work 3:00 games, and going dressed is the standard here.

I agree that if you really want somewhere to change, they can probably find somewhere for you. But, at the schools I speak of locally, I have asked for a room before and they have told me to go in the home team's locker room.

[zm1283]

From the first two pages of this thread:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Don't you guys provide locker rooms? Not sure why this would even need to be said. Then again again there are people that think going to games dressed is a good thing. I stand corrected.

Peace

No one said it was a good thing, but some have said it is accepted and necessary at times in some areas.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well it might be the norm, but I bet it is not expected by the assignor. I say that because a lot of guys that work those games, are working those games for a reason and their professionalism is one of those reasons. I would never come dressed to a game for so many reasons I have talked about before. They better put me in some office somewhere or I am not working the game. I am not coming out of the rain, snow or wind in my black pants that just got dirty from the outside elements. That is just not going to happen.

How do you know? There are multiple varsity officials in this area that work 3:00 MS games in the fall that go to these games dressed. That doesn't mean they are any less professional. The coaches at these schools don't give a damn how the officials arrive. They are just glad that two people are there to work their game.

On the second part, no one said that YOU have to go to any game dressed.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The reason you do not go to a game in a uniform, is the people that see you come in the court in your cloths think two things. They think you are coming from a game or you are about to go to another when you leave. Not everyone that goes and watches a game is knows all the situations in which you took the game and the first impression you give them is the one might make more decisions about you. I know officials that could not work other levels because of the professionalism they displayed when someone of significant saw them. At a JH or Middle school game, someone's kids are playing and if the right person's kids are playing or grandchildren, they might not give you a shot if they think you are not professional.

I can tell you from experience that the people who are at the 3:00 MS games here do not care if you show up dressed or not.

Just because everyone else does it is not a good excuse IMO. They better give me a room somewhere or I am not working. This is a choice.

Again, no one said that YOU have to arrive to a game already dressed.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You can have personal standards that do not apply to everyone. Just because there might be people in my area that show up wearing jeans, does not mean we have to do the same.

Peace

No one said that you do.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Oh yes, the old "I've been on a message board longer so I know best" routine. Who said standards change with MS games? Going to the game dressed because it starts at 3:00 and you don't have time to get there an hour early to change doesn't mean you aren't going to work as hard as you do in a HS game. In some areas, this one included, that is the way it is. The assignor will take anyone he can get to work 3:00 games, and going dressed is the standard here.

I agree that if you really want somewhere to change, they can probably find somewhere for you. But, at the schools I speak of locally, I have asked for a room before and they have told me to go in the home team's locker room.

The reason I said that is you seem to know more about what people say here than I do. Again you have not address why most by far have said they have never worked where they were not provided a place to get dressed or why the email was given and sent to officials in the OPers area? Why do you think that was sent around in the first place?? Do you think it was sent around because it was expected for the officials to get dressed outside of a locker room? OK, you live in an area where you can come dressed, good for you. I think that is unprofessional just like I feel a lot of things are unprofessional regardless of the area like wearing a CCA jacket to one of these games or not shining shoes. If you do not agree, that is your right to not agree. But I do not have to change my standards because you do not like them. And believe it or not, there are going to be people in this thing we do that will make judgments about officials that do not jive with your personal standards. We have people here that come here all the time and complain about "politics" when I bet it is mostly they are unwilling to do something that is expected and chalk up their lack of success to politics.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

How do you know? There are multiple varsity officials in this area that work 3:00 MS games in the fall that go to these games dressed. That doesn't mean they are any less professional. The coaches at these schools don't give a damn how the officials arrive. They are just glad that two people are there to work their game.

Working varsity at some point does not exonerate you from acts of professionalism.

And you claim they do not give a damn but something tells me based on experience that is not totally true. A long time varsity guy and I worked a JH tournament (local) tournament some years ago for a varsity assignor and we worked two games that afternoon. We both showed up to the game not dressed in uniform and got dressed in an office or teacher's lounge. I will never forget the scorer on that game in about the first quarter of the first game said to me in an amazed voice, "You guys must be varsity officials?" I was surprised and asked her "Why do you think that?" She said, "Because you guys do everything so professionally. Most of the officials we see are so sloppy and we have to try to figure out what you they are doing. With you guys we know what your fouls are and how you deal with us is so professional." I did not even think we were doing anything special and I certainly did not tell them what we had done, but they figured it out. BTW, I also heard a positive word about our job from the assignor who appreciated our effort as the school administrators also appreciated our effort that night.

Peace

[klacc]

That is ridiculous. I grew up in Hawaii and its pretty easy to just use a towel to help change. Just be prepared and don't do dumb things.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Working varsity at some point does not exonerate you from acts of professionalism.

And you claim they do not give a damn but something tells me based on experience that is not totally true. A long time varsity guy and I worked a JH tournament (local) tournament some years ago for a varsity assignor and we worked two games that afternoon. We both showed up to the game not dressed in uniform and got dressed in an office or teacher's lounge. I will never forget the scorer on that game in about the first quarter of the first game said to me in an amazed voice, "You guys must be varsity officials?" I was surprised and asked her "Why do you think that?" She said, "Because you guys do everything so professionally. Most of the officials we see are so sloppy and we have to try to figure out what you they are doing. With you guys we know what your fouls are and how you deal with us is so professional." I did not even think we were doing anything special and I certainly did not tell them what we had done, but they figured it out. BTW, I also heard a positive word about our job from the assignor who appreciated our effort as the school administrators also appreciated our effort that night.

Peace

And getting dressed at the site was one of the keys to all this positive feedback?