Just a Word of Caution...

[Scooby]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Officials locker room - Changing screen for umpires and officials in the parking lot

I've actually seen it once (baseball).

Yes, I have used it many times (softball). It is a great alternative to changing in the parking lot hiding behind your car. And it fold down flat in your trunk.

Rut - I agree that the schools need to provide a place to change, but if they do not that does not lift the responsibility of the the officials to follow the law and/or act in a professional manner.

[bainsey]

Even in the tiniest middle school I've worked here in the northeast corner, the school has ALWAYS provided a room for basketball officials to change.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Even in the tiniest middle school I've worked here in the northeast corner, the school has ALWAYS provided a room for basketball officials to change.

Also the case when I worked ms games in Iowa. Normally, if you ask, they'll give you a coach's office at least. I have, however, had schools where there were three options: 1, public restroom. 2, share a locker room with the home team. 3, come dressed. I chose #3 because it was what the others were doing, and it wasn't worth standing out with this issue in that city.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I said what I was going to do first and foremost. You tried to claim that I said I would not work the game, which is not exactly what I said. I actually said if that was the norm then I would not accept games at that level.

If an official does not come dressed to a game (e.g. job situations) and they want the official to work the game and not leave, they better provide somewhere for them to get dressed or they do not have the right to complain like this email suggested. And yes I have the courage to either complain or to change that policy for the reasons I stated.

Peace

I would hate to have misread you (done it before).

Let's see if I can figure out where I may have got the impression that you wouldn't work "the game."
While we're at it, I'll see if I can find a statement that indicates you're projecting your opinion onto the assigner of the OP.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well it might be the norm, but I bet it is not expected by the assignor. I say that because a lot of guys that work those games, are working those games for a reason and their professionalism is one of those reasons. I would never come dressed to a game for so many reasons I have talked about before. They better put me in some office somewhere or I am not working the game. I am not coming out of the rain, snow or wind in my black pants that just got dirty from the outside elements. That is just not going to happen.

Yep, as always, the misunderstanding was my fault.

[Camron Rust]

There is a certain level of "professionalism" in the off-the-court stuff that we do that is appropriate for each level of game. To impose college level expectations or even HS level expectations on a MS game is the equivalent of being overly officious on the court. With MS games, they're just glad to have someone show up. They're not going to care that you came dressed. If you do a good job on the court, they're really not going to care about how you arrived.

[grunewar]

I have never gone to a game dressed in full uniform. Closest I will come is for a Rec Game where I might where my pants and change shoes and shirt somewhere upon arrival.

As I was coming through the ranks, I never reffed a scholastic game, that I can recall, where the school didn't provide me someplace to go - mostly an office or locker room. I've even used a bathroom, kitchen, a "private" hallway, and behind the curtain on a stage.

[JRutledge]

Snaqwells,

I did not blame you. Again one of the misunderstandings you and I will always have, I do not have to work these games, so I can set the parameters in which I work games. That will be the case even if I move, because officiating is not going to be most people's primary officiating or income. I do not feel like when I work I have to give charity to work any game. If the situations are not right, I would rather sit home than subject myself to something that is not right in my mind. And since I have been working games and know many people that are all over the country or this region of the country, I have never heard anyone suggest they could not get a locker room to work any level game other than maybe summer ball where no one has a locker room. But if the teams have a locker room, so should we.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

There is a certain level of "professionalism" in the off-the-court stuff that we do that is appropriate for each level of game. To impose college level expectations or even HS level expectations on a MS game is the equivalent of being overly officious on the court. With MS games, they're just glad to have someone show up. They're not going to care that you came dressed. If you do a good job on the court, they're really not going to care about how you arrived.

Help me understand your point for a second. We have people here that talk all the time about what is professional and proper as it relates to the mechanics and rules and all of a sudden we get to a JH game and all that flies out the window? If I suggested for a second that you should not use proper mechanics for example because it is a JH game I would get killed for saying just that thing or if I said that we should not do those things because it is a JH game and they do not rise to the level of importance of the high school or college level. How do you think that would go over here?

BTW, in the NF mechanics book under Game Management, there is a section that tells the schools what are to be expected of them to the officials. One of them on page 83 clearly says:

"Provide a clean, private dressing room with shower or nearby shower stall. Before and after a game and at halftime, the official’s room(s) should be "out of bounds" for everyone except the few who have a definite assignment there."

All of that is said does not distinguish the level or the circumstances. Now I am not asking for all of what that book states, because in many cases we do not get a shower and frankly some have been a utility closet for lack of a better term, but it was so we could go and not be exposed to the fans or coaches after the game. If you have no place to go, that is exactly what will and has happen. And many of these schools I would not take a shower in them with a full body suit, but at least we have some place to talk or discuss situations. I am not sure how you can have a candid pre-game while on the court because anything we say can and has been misconstrued and even gotten officials in trouble (Remember the officials that were overheard when they made comments about a coach some years back?). I do not think it is asking too much to have some place that we can talk or get away from fans. If there is an assault or confrontation, not having a private place could easily be the cause of that. And it is much more likely at these games than most HS or college games where there is much more security and accountability.

Peace

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Help me understand your point for a second. We have people here that talk all the time about what is professional and proper as it relates to the mechanics and rules and all of a sudden we get to a JH game and all that flies out the window? If I suggested for a second that you should not use proper mechanics for example because it is a JH game I would get killed for saying just that thing or if I said that we should not do those things because it is a JH game and they do not rise to the level of importance of the high school or college level. How do you think that would go over here?

BTW, in the NF mechanics book under Game Management, there is a section that tells the schools what are to be expected of them to the officials. One of them on page 83 clearly says:

"Provide a clean, private dressing room with shower or nearby shower stall. Before and after a game and at halftime, the official’s room(s) should be "out of bounds" for everyone except the few who have a definite assignment there."

All of that is said does not distinguish the level or the circumstances. Now I am not asking for all of what that book states, because in many cases we do not get a shower and frankly some have been a utility closet for lack of a better term, but it was so we could go and not be exposed to the fans or coaches after the game. If you have no place to go, that is exactly what will and has happen. And many of these schools I would not take a shower in them with a full body suit, but at least we have some place to talk or discuss situations. I am not sure how you can have a candid pre-game while on the court because anything we say can and has been misconstrued and even gotten officials in trouble (Remember the officials that were overheard when they made comments about a coach some years back?). I do not think it is asking too much to have some place that we can talk or get away from fans. If there is an assault or confrontation, not having a private place could easily be the cause of that. And it is much more likely at these games than most HS or college games where there is much more security and accountability.

Peace

You're establishing a double standard by saying you wish that game management provide the officials a place of solitude, yet have earlier stated could really not care about the selection of & training of the table officials.

Instead of just expecting the AD or authorized representative providing a place of solitude, how about politely asking if one can be provided?

[APG]

In a thread about dressing accommodations for officials we somehow bring it back to something about the table...LOL!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by chseagle

You're establishing a double standard by saying you wish that game management provide the officials a place of solitude, yet have earlier stated could really not care about the selection of & training of the table officials.

Instead of just expecting the AD or authorized representative providing a place of solitude, how about politely asking if one can be provided?

Why should I not be surprised that you came in this thread and made it about the table in an unrelated issue? Really dude?

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Help me understand your point for a second. We have people here that talk all the time about what is professional and proper as it relates to the mechanics and rules and all of a sudden we get to a JH game and all that flies out the window? If I suggested for a second that you should not use proper mechanics for example because it is a JH game I would get killed for saying just that thing or if I said that we should not do those things because it is a JH game and they do not rise to the level of importance of the high school or college level. How do you think that would go over here?

Apples and oranges. Rules and Mechanics have nothing to do with where you dress and how you arrive at the school.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

BTW, in the NF mechanics book under Game Management, there is a section that tells the schools what are to be expected of them to the officials. One of them on page 83 clearly says:

"Provide a clean, private dressing room with shower or nearby shower stall. Before and after a game and at halftime, the official’s room(s) should be "out of bounds" for everyone except the few who have a definite assignment there."

Last time I checked, the NF had no jurisdiction over middle school games. Just because the middle school leagues choose to use the same game rules doesn't mean they have to do everything the HS's do.

Plus, as many (including you, IIRC, and me) have often claimed, the mechanics book is a GUIDE book. It is not the rule book. Mechanics do carry a certainly level of optionality with them. They are A way to administer the game but the game can be administered with complete legal correctness when done with modifications to the mechanics.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Apples and oranges. Rules and Mechanics have nothing to do with where you dress and how you arrive at the school.

Last time I checked, the NF had no jurisdiction over middle school games. Just because the middle school leagues choose to use the same game rules doesn't mean they have to do everything the HS's do.

I only used the reference to illustrate that there is a standard. The NF has no jurisdiction over anyone anyway when it comes to mechanics or policies as to what anyone does in any sport. States use the NF guidelines if they choose to, having said that, when I first started working we were told to follow NF procedures and mechanics to the letter. My state has sense abandoned the NF Manual, but the middle schools in much of the state follow the IHSA policies and that includes having a locker room for officials. Actually I have never worked a middle school game and was not provided such a space (I worked an IESA Post Season just in the last couple of years). I will say in my immediate area this is not as much of a standard, but never had a problem getting such a place if requested when attending a game. Again, I am not showing up to any basketball game during the regular season dressed in that uniform. Not unless someone is going to do my laundry when I get to the site.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Plus, as many (including you, IIRC, and me) have often claimed, the mechanics book is a GUIDE book. It is not the rule book. Mechanics do carry a certainly level of optionality with them. They are A way to administer the game but the game can be administered with complete legal correctness when done with modifications to the mechanics.

As I said, I only referenced it to make a point. Also all standards officials (in any sport) are not spelled out in writing. I went to my college meeting today and many things people do are not spelled out. But I can tell you if you do not do certain things they are noticed by the very people that make the decisions. I would rather take my chance that someone in the building is probably going to notice me and expect something more than what is OK by some. I do not feel that "everyone does it" is a good excuse to do less than what is normal. It is not unusual at the middle school level to see an assignor, accomplished official, college supervisor or a big time coach to attend those games and often some individual’s behavior has been evaluated positively and negatively based on how they walk into the gym. I am just giving a suggestion; it is not my career that is going to be affected if you do not go to a game appropriately in someone's mind.

Peace

[Texas Aggie]

They better give me a room somewhere or I am not working. This is a choice.//
There are some areas where if an official makes this "choice," he will be labeled high maintenance and a prima donna (sp?)

That's just plain stupid.

Is it high maintenance or being a prima donna to demand that the court be free of debris and water leaks? What about the baskets being properly secured? Speaking of security, what about proper security for the officials -- whatever that may be? How about demanding that the teams wear proper uniforms, the coaches abide by the rules, and the clock run on properly?

If you're satisfied with what's being offered by the school in the situation described here, that's fine. But don't criticize those who are not. A locker room demand is NOT unreasonable for basketball. Baseball, softball, and soccer may be a little different due to the location of the field, but basketball si an indoor sport where most teams have access to their own locker rooms to change. Officials should have the same courtesy.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

That's just plain stupid.

Is it high maintenance or being a prima donna to demand that the court be free of debris and water leaks? What about the baskets being properly secured? Speaking of security, what about proper security for the officials -- whatever that may be? How about demanding that the teams wear proper uniforms, the coaches abide by the rules, and the clock run on properly?

If you're satisfied with what's being offered by the school in the situation described here, that's fine. But don't criticize those who are not. A locker room demand is NOT unreasonable for basketball. Baseball, softball, and soccer may be a little different due to the location of the field, but basketball si an indoor sport where most teams have access to their own locker rooms to change. Officials should have the same courtesy.

I wasn't criticizing anyone for not wanting to accept it. I was taking exception to one who criticized those who felt, for whatever reason, they had to accept the conditions as they were. Personally, I'm not in a position where I have to make that choice. When I was, I did one season of ms ball and stopped due to pay issues, but I wasn't about to criticize the officials who were working for that pay without a lockerroom to use.

My statement about a prima dona was in response to the proverbial official who shows up to a ms game demanding an office to change in when it's not part of the agreed-upon accomodations made with the association; and then refuses to work the game when his demands aren't met.

The fact is, it's something that has to be negotiated rather than demanded by individual officials.

The OP is, if the association leadership is smart, a great opportunity to discuss the issue with the schools.