You Make The Call

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

And? I feel like I most be speaking another language because this rule is so simply as to not need the 20 or so responses we've had to it.

The whole reason we have rule 4-41 and the act of shooting defined is because we have rule 4-11 that deals with continuous motion that tells us a try will count if an offensive player is fouled during the act of shooting. Nowhere does any of the guarding rules mention the act of shooting/try. All the guarding rules have told us is if a player has the ball, a defender has to obtain LGP before the player is airborne. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thanks?
I am still maintaining what i have from the start. B1 did not have LGP.

[Raymond]

I have never read that a defender must establish LGP before a shooter begins his shooting motion. I have always thought it must be established before A1 gets airborne. I've been wrong all these years? If so I would really appreciate a word-for-word citation so I can stand corrected.

Here is the college rule, I guess HS rules are different in regards to airborne shooters

Rule 4-35:
Art. 4. To establish an initial legal guarding position on the player with the
ball:
a. The guard shall have both feet touching the playing court. When the guard jumps into position initially, both feet must return to the playing court after the jump, for the guard to attain a guarding position.
b. The guard’s torso shall face the opponent.
c. No time and distance shall be required.
d. When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.Exception: (Men) Rule 4-35.7

Art. 5. To establish legal guarding position on a player without the ball:
a. Time and distance shall be required to attain an initial legal position;
b. The guard shall give the opponent the time and distance to avoid
contact;
c. The distance given by the opponent of the player without the ball need not be more than two strides; and
d. When the opponent is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I have never read that a defender must establish LGP before a shooter begins his shooting motion. I have always thought it must be established before A1 gets airborne. I've been wrong all these years? If so I would really appreciate a word-for-word citation so I can stand corrected.

Here is the college rule, I guess HS rules are different in regards to airborne shooters

Rule 4-35:
Art. 4. To establish an initial legal guarding position on the player with the
ball:
a. The guard shall have both feet touching the playing court. When the guard jumps into position initially, both feet must return to the playing court after the jump, for the guard to attain a guarding position.
b. The guard’s torso shall face the opponent.
c. No time and distance shall be required.
d. When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.Exception: (Men) Rule 4-35.7

Art. 5. To establish legal guarding position on a player without the ball:
a. Time and distance shall be required to attain an initial legal position;
b. The guard shall give the opponent the time and distance to avoid
contact;
c. The distance given by the opponent of the player without the ball need not be more than two strides; and
d. When the opponent is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.

Thanks for the college rule,
d. [B]When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.

I am not Interpreting this as an airborne shooter, for airborne shooter i will use rule 4-71

The criteria for when a shoot begins (rule 4-71-3) and as you have already posted guarding (4-35) are clear to me.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

Thanks for the college rule,
d. [B]When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.

I am not Interpreting this as an airborne shooter, for airborne shooter i will use rule 4-71

The criteria for when a shoot begins (rule 4-71-3) and as you have already posted guarding (4-35) are clear to me.

That's your problem. Stop interpreting the rule and just read the d@mned thing. When the shot begins only matters if there is a defensive foul during the interval beginning at the start of the shot and ending with the release of the shot. Determining whether it's a foul is done separately, this rule does not help in that issue; it's only purpose is to determine whether a shot should count when a foul is called.

Finally, you really should listen to the experienced officials on here. The combined officiating experience of the officials who have told you you're wrong on here exceeds the combined ages of your graduating high school class. If you don't believe us, take your ridiculous interpretation and philosophy to the local association leadership.

[Adam]

Finally, NoFear, you should consider this situation:

A1 gathers his dribble on the run, in the air. He lands on his left foot and jumps, landing on both feet (legal jump stop). B1 sets up between the landing spot and the basket, right before A1 changes direction and jumps directly into B1's chest (knocking both players to the floor).

Your philosophy and interp would have you calling a block on this play, and you would be the only official I've ever met who'd call it that way.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Finally, NoFear, you should consider this situation:

A1 gathers his dribble on the run, in the air. He lands on his left foot and jumps, landing on both feet (legal jump stop). B1 sets up between the landing spot and the basket, right before A1 changes direction and jumps directly into B1's chest (knocking both players to the floor).

Your philosophy and interp would have you calling a block on this play, and you would be the only official I've ever met who'd call it that way.

This what the video is almost showing.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

This what the video is almost showing.

No, it's not. The video is a block, but not remotely for the reason you propose. And yes, the reasoning matters, otherwise one could cone up with all sorts of stupid rulings.

[NoFear2020]

Thanks for the feedback, but there is no need to get personal just because I disagree with you.

Thank you.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

That's your problem. Stop interpreting the rule and just read the d@mned thing. When the shot begins only matters if there is a defensive foul during the interval beginning at the start of the shot and ending with the release of the shot. Determining whether it's a foul is done separately, this rule does not help in that issue; it's only purpose is to determine whether a shot should count when a foul is called.

Finally, you really should listen to the experienced officials on here. The combined officiating experience of the officials who have told you you're wrong on here exceeds the combined ages of your graduating high school class. If you don't believe us, take your ridiculous interpretation and philosophy to the local association leadership.

So i read this [B]d. When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court. and my problem is i do not infer airborne shooter, but you want my to infer that it does?

No disrespect to all the experienced officials on here, but after i do the math i come up with a number 2600 years.

I feel that your upset and have taken what i said as a personal attack, please don't. My intention is to always keep improving. I have been visiting this site since about 1997, but only recently started posting, as a discussion board i feel that i can express my opinions freely, if name call is the end result of difference of opinion then i will have to remember that.
Once again thank you all experienced officials and not so experienced ones.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

So i read this [B]d. When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court. and my problem is i do not infer airborne shooter, but you want my to infer that it does?

It applies to any player who leaves the floor, whether he's a shooter or not. That player is then allowed to land (assuming the landing spot was not legally occupied when he left the floor, etc.)

And, when it applies to a shooter, it applies WHEN THE PLAYER LEAVES THE FLOOR, not when the player begins his try.

[tref]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

I have been visiting this site since about 1997, but only recently started posting, as a discussion board i feel that i can express my opinions freely...

Since '97?!?!?! You're a vet, you should know the drill
Expressing flat out wrong "opinions" about a RULE will get you smacked around every time. If one chooses to be stubborn after being hit with rule/casebook references... you being around since '97 & all, should know that the degree of smacks always increase. And the people that generally do the smacking haven't even chimed in.
Its only because we are in the off-season that you got this much play!

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

In slow motion we can see that at about 0:10 the offensives player has gathered the ball which is the start of the habitual shooting motion and the defensive player is still moving. Block!

Right after you made THAT comment (correct ruling but not for the right reasons) Billy was nice to you, I was nice to you, Snaqs was nice to you. You have been combining rules ever since, trying to defend your incorrect position. You know, sorta like the guy that calls travel on designated spot throw-ins
Yeah, its a violation but not because of a travel.
All you had to do was eat it, learn from it & move on. If this is how you judge block/charge plays then I'm sure you very rarely reward anybody for good defense. One has gotta be there pretty quick in your ballgames
If I'm the coach & I see you walk in the arena, I'm telling my players "when he's on the baseline dont take any charges tonight & drive right through the defense."

*Hint-Hint* Good coaches, figure out what their dealing with & adjust their squads accordingly... they dont try to change calls or simply complain about the officiating.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If you are working D2 games you should know what " the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court" means without have to infer anything.

Location, location, location...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

your graduating high school class

You're assuming facts not in evidence.

[Adam]

The only rules that apply to defending an airborne opponent are 4-23-4 and 4-23-5. What youre missing is anything that ties LGP to the shooting motion. You cant just find two separate rules and combine them on a whim.

[APG]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

Thanks?
I am still maintaining what i have from the start. B1 did not have LGP.

I'm not speaking specifically about this play. I'm talking about your general statement that a defender must obtain a legal position before the ball is gathered which is incorrect.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I'm not speaking specifically about this play. I'm talking about your general statement that a defender must obtain a legal position before the ball is gathered which is incorrect.

I am going to try this out this season.

Philosophy: General statement the defender must obtain a legal position before the ball is gathered.

Since gathering the ball is the motion that precedes the release of the ball, making this a try, and that the opposite of legal position is illegal position, makes this an easy one for me.




Rule 4-41-3. The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

This means that, as soon as a player gathers the ball, on say a layup, the shot has started and s/he is in the act of shooting.

Rule 4-23-2. To obtain an initial legal guarding positon.
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard’s torso must be facing the opponent.

This means that the defender must do these things before the offence starts the try in order to be legal.

Situation:

A1 dribbling/attacking the basket @ top of 3pt circle gets by his defender B1,
A1 dribbles left to the left baseline, like a layup drill.
A1 ended dribble (by gathering the ball) with 2feet off playing court just inside the 3pt. line, A1 is in the act of shooting.
@ Same time B2, who is guarding A2 on right block, sees A1 going to the basket.
@ This exact moment B2 is by rule guarding B2 and is not, and has not established legal guarding position on A1.

B2 has not obtained LGP on A1, before A1 started the attempt to throw for goal (in the act of shooting.) Any illegal contact by B2 that adversely affects A1s rhythm, speed, balance or quickness should be called a foul.

If B2 steps into A1 path now and causes contact it must, by rule be considered illegal.

Because A1 ended the dribble with 2feet in the air s/he may come down with 2 very long strides and dunk, and unless a defender was on the playing court and in A1 path before A1 was in the act of shooting, contact must be illegal.