You Make The Call

[APG]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

If B1 did not gain LGP like in this play then we allow A1 to continue with his shoot. Because B1 has fouled A1.
They something to do with each other, right?

We allow A1 to continue with his try because he was fouled while in the act of shooting...just like we would anytime. That's all that continuous motion deals with...whether a basket will count due to a defense foul during the act of shooting. It doesn't tell us that a defender must be there prior to the gather. The End.

The only rule that deals with LGP and when a defensive player has to obtain it in regards to an airborne player has been posted 3 times already...it's must be obtained before a player is airborne.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

We allow A1 to continue with his try because he was fouled while in the act of shooting...just like we would anytime. That's all that continuous motion deals with...whether a basket will count due to a defense foul during the act of shooting. It doesn't tell us that a defender must be there prior to the gather. The End.

The only rule that deals with LGP and when a defensive player has to obtain it in regards to an airborne player has been posted 3 times already...it's must be obtained before a player is airborne.

Rule 4-23 tells us how to guard legally and how obtain LGP and in order to know if LGP was obtained Rule 4-41 tells us when the act of shooting begins.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

Rule 4-23 tells us how to guard legally and how obtain LGP and in order to know if LGP was obtained Rule 4-41 tells us when the act of shooting begins.

What if A1 passes the ball while airbornre before crashing into B1? When did B1 need to have established LGP?

[APG]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

Rule 4-23 tells us how to guard legally and how obtain LGP and in order to know if LGP was obtained Rule 4-41 tells us when the act of shooting begins.

And? I feel like I must be speaking another language because this rule is so simply as to not need the 20 or so responses we've had to it.

The whole reason we have rule 4-41 and the act of shooting defined is because we have rule 4-11 that deals with continuous motion that tells us a try will count if an offensive player is fouled during the act of shooting. Nowhere does any of the guarding rules mention the act of shooting/try. All the guarding rules have told us is if a player has the ball, a defender has to obtain LGP before the player is airborne. Nothing more, nothing less.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

And? I feel like I most be speaking another language because this rule is so simply as to not need the 20 or so responses we've had to it.

The whole reason we have rule 4-41 and the act of shooting defined is because we have rule 4-11 that deals with continuous motion that tells us a try will count if an offensive player is fouled during the act of shooting. Nowhere does any of the guarding rules mention the act of shooting/try. All the guarding rules have told us is if a player has the ball, a defender has to obtain LGP before the player is airborne. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thanks?
I am still maintaining what i have from the start. B1 did not have LGP.

[Raymond]

I have never read that a defender must establish LGP before a shooter begins his shooting motion. I have always thought it must be established before A1 gets airborne. I've been wrong all these years? If so I would really appreciate a word-for-word citation so I can stand corrected.

Here is the college rule, I guess HS rules are different in regards to airborne shooters

Rule 4-35:
Art. 4. To establish an initial legal guarding position on the player with the
ball:
a. The guard shall have both feet touching the playing court. When the guard jumps into position initially, both feet must return to the playing court after the jump, for the guard to attain a guarding position.
b. The guard’s torso shall face the opponent.
c. No time and distance shall be required.
d. When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.Exception: (Men) Rule 4-35.7

Art. 5. To establish legal guarding position on a player without the ball:
a. Time and distance shall be required to attain an initial legal position;
b. The guard shall give the opponent the time and distance to avoid
contact;
c. The distance given by the opponent of the player without the ball need not be more than two strides; and
d. When the opponent is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I have never read that a defender must establish LGP before a shooter begins his shooting motion. I have always thought it must be established before A1 gets airborne. I've been wrong all these years? If so I would really appreciate a word-for-word citation so I can stand corrected.

Here is the college rule, I guess HS rules are different in regards to airborne shooters

Rule 4-35:
Art. 4. To establish an initial legal guarding position on the player with the
ball:
a. The guard shall have both feet touching the playing court. When the guard jumps into position initially, both feet must return to the playing court after the jump, for the guard to attain a guarding position.
b. The guard’s torso shall face the opponent.
c. No time and distance shall be required.
d. When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.Exception: (Men) Rule 4-35.7

Art. 5. To establish legal guarding position on a player without the ball:
a. Time and distance shall be required to attain an initial legal position;
b. The guard shall give the opponent the time and distance to avoid
contact;
c. The distance given by the opponent of the player without the ball need not be more than two strides; and
d. When the opponent is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.

Thanks for the college rule,
d. [B]When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.

I am not Interpreting this as an airborne shooter, for airborne shooter i will use rule 4-71

The criteria for when a shoot begins (rule 4-71-3) and as you have already posted guarding (4-35) are clear to me.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

Thanks for the college rule,
d. [B]When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.

I am not Interpreting this as an airborne shooter, for airborne shooter i will use rule 4-71

The criteria for when a shoot begins (rule 4-71-3) and as you have already posted guarding (4-35) are clear to me.

That's your problem. Stop interpreting the rule and just read the d@mned thing. When the shot begins only matters if there is a defensive foul during the interval beginning at the start of the shot and ending with the release of the shot. Determining whether it's a foul is done separately, this rule does not help in that issue; it's only purpose is to determine whether a shot should count when a foul is called.

Finally, you really should listen to the experienced officials on here. The combined officiating experience of the officials who have told you you're wrong on here exceeds the combined ages of your graduating high school class. If you don't believe us, take your ridiculous interpretation and philosophy to the local association leadership.

[Adam]

The only rules that apply to defending an airborne opponent are 4-23-4 and 4-23-5. What youre missing is anything that ties LGP to the shooting motion. You cant just find two separate rules and combine them on a whim.

[APG]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

Thanks?
I am still maintaining what i have from the start. B1 did not have LGP.

I'm not speaking specifically about this play. I'm talking about your general statement that a defender must obtain a legal position before the ball is gathered which is incorrect.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I'm not speaking specifically about this play. I'm talking about your general statement that a defender must obtain a legal position before the ball is gathered which is incorrect.

I am going to try this out this season.

Philosophy: General statement the defender must obtain a legal position before the ball is gathered.

Since gathering the ball is the motion that precedes the release of the ball, making this a try, and that the opposite of legal position is illegal position, makes this an easy one for me.




Rule 4-41-3. The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

This means that, as soon as a player gathers the ball, on say a layup, the shot has started and s/he is in the act of shooting.

Rule 4-23-2. To obtain an initial legal guarding positon.
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard’s torso must be facing the opponent.

This means that the defender must do these things before the offence starts the try in order to be legal.

Situation:

A1 dribbling/attacking the basket @ top of 3pt circle gets by his defender B1,
A1 dribbles left to the left baseline, like a layup drill.
A1 ended dribble (by gathering the ball) with 2feet off playing court just inside the 3pt. line, A1 is in the act of shooting.
@ Same time B2, who is guarding A2 on right block, sees A1 going to the basket.
@ This exact moment B2 is by rule guarding B2 and is not, and has not established legal guarding position on A1.

B2 has not obtained LGP on A1, before A1 started the attempt to throw for goal (in the act of shooting.) Any illegal contact by B2 that adversely affects A1s rhythm, speed, balance or quickness should be called a foul.

If B2 steps into A1 path now and causes contact it must, by rule be considered illegal.

Because A1 ended the dribble with 2feet in the air s/he may come down with 2 very long strides and dunk, and unless a defender was on the playing court and in A1 path before A1 was in the act of shooting, contact must be illegal.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

I am going to try this out this season.

Now you're just acting troll-like.

Philosophy: General statement the defender must obtain a legal position before the ball is gathered.

Wrong

Since gathering the ball is the motion that precedes the release of the ball, making this a try, and that the opposite of legal position is illegal position, makes this an easy one for me.

All of that is true, but has nothing to do with LGP.

Rule 4-41-3. The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

This means that, as soon as a player gathers the ball, on say a layup, the shot has started and s/he is in the act of shooting.

Yes, but again, nothing about LGP

Rule 4-23-2. To obtain an initial legal guarding positon.
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard’s torso must be facing the opponent.

This means that the defender must do these things before the offence starts the try in order to be legal.

No it doesn't. Your "logic" doesn't follow. It just meansd that the defnender must do thiese things before contact (or before the player becomes airborne). Read the "time and distance" requirements -- they have NOTHING to do with whether a try is even involved in the play.

[Kelvin green]

Dude give it up!

You cannot support your premise. Stop trying to defend it...
The provision in the rule is

b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.

It does not say started the gather, it does not say started act of shooting, it states before left the floor. This is consistent with the fact that anyone is entitled to a spot if they get there first. Once airborne the spot to land has been decided...

The dribbled must be in control and if gathering may still get the step. It is assumed that a player in control can change directions and avoid good defense. Do not penalize good defense because of this philosophical nonsense.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

Rule 4-41-3. The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

This means that, as soon as a player gathers the ball, on say a layup, the shot has started and s/he is in the act of shooting.

So far so good, but you probably should have stopped here.

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

Rule 4-23-2. To obtain an initial legal guarding positon.
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard’s torso must be facing the opponent.

This means that the defender must do these things before the offence starts the try in order to be legal.

Okay, you should look up the phrase "non sequitur." You can't quote two separate rules and assume there's some connection. There isn't. You may as well quote the traveling rule and try to argue that the defender can't move his pivot foot after obtaining LGP. Your premise just doesn't follow from quoting these two rules, you haven't quoted anything that tells you to combine them, because it's not there.

Further, you're completely ignoring the repeatedly quoted applicable rule; 4-23-4b.

if the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.