You Make The Call

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by tref

Absofreakinglutely, call it like it is Brad!

An important factor that hasn't been brought up is the team officiating concept. I think its safe to say that 80% of us say its not a p/c. The more important piece would be "why" was it ruled incorrectly??
I know in different parts of the country we have different philosophies on who gets first crack at block/charge plays. But staying connected to SDF plays that go to the rim at T/C would permit a great opportunity for a double whistle in this sitch! Would've been nice to see the T pop & maybe the two officials could've communicated & came out with the right call.

It all boils down to a detailed pregame... a flop is a block tonight, 2 opponents going down in the paint after the shot & before the shooter lands needs a whistle, double whistles on 2ndary defenders go to the L, etc.

Being likeminded is crucial here, perhaps the T was passing on the flop/block & the L has bodies on the floor in the paint so he feels obligated to put a whistle on it. IMO, the L never really picked up the 2ndary defender & goes with a p/c.

NoFear: There comes a time when we have to say we were wrong, learn from it & move on. You've been provided with ample rules & caseplays to support the difference between, when LGP must be obtained vs. continuous motion.

Thanks tref, I am here to learn. I understand LGP and continuous motion I am not using one over the other. I am using them together.
Aren’t they to be used but together?
Please would you point out the case play once more?
Thanks!

[APG]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

Thanks tref, I am here to learn. I understand LGP and continuous motion I am not using one over the other. I am using them together.
Aren’t they to be used but together?
Please would you point out the case play once more?
Thanks!

4-11 Continuous Motion

ART. 1...Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by a defensive player during the interval which beings when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.
ART. 2...If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movements, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

Continuous motion and LGP have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

4-11 Continuous Motion

ART. 1...Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by a defensive player during the interval which beings when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.
ART. 2...If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movements, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

Continuous motion and LGP have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

If B1 did not gain LGP like in this play then we allow A1 to continue with his shoot. Because B1 has fouled A1.
They something to do with each other, right?

[APG]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

If B1 did not gain LGP like in this play then we allow A1 to continue with his shoot. Because B1 has fouled A1.
They something to do with each other, right?

We allow A1 to continue with his try because he was fouled while in the act of shooting...just like we would anytime. That's all that continuous motion deals with...whether a basket will count due to a defense foul during the act of shooting. It doesn't tell us that a defender must be there prior to the gather. The End.

The only rule that deals with LGP and when a defensive player has to obtain it in regards to an airborne player has been posted 3 times already...it's must be obtained before a player is airborne.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

We allow A1 to continue with his try because he was fouled while in the act of shooting...just like we would anytime. That's all that continuous motion deals with...whether a basket will count due to a defense foul during the act of shooting. It doesn't tell us that a defender must be there prior to the gather. The End.

The only rule that deals with LGP and when a defensive player has to obtain it in regards to an airborne player has been posted 3 times already...it's must be obtained before a player is airborne.

Rule 4-23 tells us how to guard legally and how obtain LGP and in order to know if LGP was obtained Rule 4-41 tells us when the act of shooting begins.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

Rule 4-23 tells us how to guard legally and how obtain LGP and in order to know if LGP was obtained Rule 4-41 tells us when the act of shooting begins.

What if A1 passes the ball while airbornre before crashing into B1? When did B1 need to have established LGP?

[APG]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

Rule 4-23 tells us how to guard legally and how obtain LGP and in order to know if LGP was obtained Rule 4-41 tells us when the act of shooting begins.

And? I feel like I must be speaking another language because this rule is so simply as to not need the 20 or so responses we've had to it.

The whole reason we have rule 4-41 and the act of shooting defined is because we have rule 4-11 that deals with continuous motion that tells us a try will count if an offensive player is fouled during the act of shooting. Nowhere does any of the guarding rules mention the act of shooting/try. All the guarding rules have told us is if a player has the ball, a defender has to obtain LGP before the player is airborne. Nothing more, nothing less.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

And? I feel like I most be speaking another language because this rule is so simply as to not need the 20 or so responses we've had to it.

The whole reason we have rule 4-41 and the act of shooting defined is because we have rule 4-11 that deals with continuous motion that tells us a try will count if an offensive player is fouled during the act of shooting. Nowhere does any of the guarding rules mention the act of shooting/try. All the guarding rules have told us is if a player has the ball, a defender has to obtain LGP before the player is airborne. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thanks?
I am still maintaining what i have from the start. B1 did not have LGP.

[tref]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

Thanks tref, I am here to learn.

Please would you point out the case play once more?
Thanks!

Arent we all!

I'll try to do you one better, how about the rule as written?

4-23-4
Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without the ball:

b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.

Like Ragu... it's in there!


It sounds like your problem with understading the rule lies here:

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

B1 got to his spot at least right before A1 took off by that time A1 was in the act of shooting B1 is late.

Took off = Alight
Defender must obtain LGP prior to this.

Act of shooting = Gather
Defender can obtain LGP here OR before the shooter "takes off" & may move to maintain LGP during the act of shooting.

I'm sure you've seen a "set-shot" before? They never "take off" or alight but they still are in the "act of shooting" at some point.

On block/charge plays if we punch it, continuous motion is out the window & LGP is all that applies. If we block it, continuous motion applies because LGP obviously wasn't established.

To me its one or the other, we need not combine these rules to come to a decision.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by tref

Arent we all!

I'll try to do you one better, how about the rule as written?

4-23-4
Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without the ball:

b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.

Like Ragu... it's in there!


It sounds like your problem with understading the rule lies here:



Took off = Alight
Defender must obtain LGP prior to this.

Act of shooting = Gather
Defender can obtain LGP here OR before the shooter "takes off" & may move to maintain LGP during the act of shooting.

I'm sure you've seen a "set-shot" before? They never "take off" or alight but they still are in the "act of shooting" at some point.

On block/charge plays if we punch it, continuous motion is out the window & LGP is all that applies. If we block it, continuous motion applies because LGP obviously wasn't established.

To me its one or the other, we need not combine these rules to come to a decision.

An airborne opponent with the ball might not be an airborne shooter.
An airborne shooter has protection from the start of the shot and this might be some distance away, our view has to be wide enough to see where A1 starts/gathers the ball and what B1 is doing, here we need to know if B1 has LGP or not.

[APG]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

An airborne opponent with the ball might not be an airborne shooter.
An airborne shooter has protection from the start of the shot and this might be some distance away, our view has to be wide enough to see where A1 starts/gathers the ball and what B1 is doing, here we need to know if B1 has LGP or not.

You do realize you're the only one who's supporting this position. You should probably rethink your position when everyone in the thread has disagreed with you. Literally no one has even come close to supporting your interpretation.

No rule set requires a defender to get a legal position prior to gathering the ball. None. No matter how much you try to combine or misinterpret rules...heck, even in the NBA, where a defender has to be there slightly earlier than under NF/NCAA rules, they require the defender to be there prior to the upward motion of the offensive player. If we followed your interpretation of the rule, there would be almost no charges on plays to the basket.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

You do realize you're the only one who's supporting this position. You should probably rethink your position when everyone in the thread has disagreed with you. Literally no one has even come close to supporting your interpretation.

No rule set requires a defender to get a legal position prior to gathering the ball. None. No matter how much you try to combine or misinterpret rules...heck, even in the NBA, where a defender has to be there slightly earlier than under NF/NCAA rules, they require the defender to be there prior to the upward motion of the offensive player. If we followed your interpretation of the rule, there would be almost no charges on plays to the basket.

So are you calling a player control foul on this play?

[APG]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

So are you calling a player control foul on this play?

No, I'm calling a block because I had lateral movement by the defender AFTER the player was airborne...like I stated in my first post.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

No, I'm calling a block because I had lateral movement by the defender AFTER the player was airborne...like I stated in my first post.

At least you got the call right!

[tref]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

An airborne opponent with the ball might not be an airborne shooter.An airborne shooter has protection from the start of the shot and this might be some distance away, our view has to be wide enough to see where A1 starts/gathers the ball and what B1 is doing, here we need to know if B1 has LGP or not.

Most definitely, I understand this fact. Thats why the rules-makers made it broad! It applies to an airborne opponent that shoots, passes, rebounds or catches a pass. The defender cannot slide under the airborne player, defense must be there prior to the offense alighting.

Block/Charges plays to the basket rarely happen instantaneously upon the gather & usually doesn't involve the primary defender. Usually there's at least a stride prior to crashing (if you're lucky ) in between that gather & stride is where the primary defender reaches in & hits the arm or whatever. At this point LGP is out the door & continuous motion applies.

True, we need to know when the ball is gathered & the legality of the defender at this point. But from the time of the gather & crash there will most likely be some contact that takes LGP by a 2ndary defender out of the equation.