You Make The Call

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

He's depending on his partner to do that. The Trail has to focus on his one-on-one matchup, he needs to keep an angle that allows him to see in between A1 and his primary defender. The Trail is still responsible for any contact that B1 may cause when A1 elevates for his shot.

I hear ya, but if the T glances to see where the L is looking, then he would see that the L is locked in on the drive & the T could referee through the primary matchup to get the 2ndary defender.

You know BNR, like when your partner indicates a 3 has been attempted but you notice his head constantly goes with the flight of the ball as opposed to watching their shooter up & down. After acknowledging this & my partner is still amazed with the flight of the ball, I'd be a fool not to stay with their shooter. Sometimes we have to improvise.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

Yep. They may also turn or duck when contact is immenent.
The bolded part is not only part of that rule, it is also missing from this equation. Sorta like the word intentional in a kicking violation.

And on a play like this the defender gets the benefit of the doubt on whether contact is imminent. No way I'd consider the OP does not involve imminent contact, for example.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And on a play like this the defender gets the benefit of the doubt on whether contact is imminent. No way I'd consider the OP does not involve imminent contact, for example.

IDK Snaqs.
For me imminent implies that it is obvious that the shooter/passer is about to go "to & through" the defender. As I stated waaaay back in this thread, A1 never got "to" let alone showed any signs whatsoever of going "through" the defender. He11, IMO he made every effort to avoid contact.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by tref

Absofreakinglutely, call it like it is Brad!

An important factor that hasn't been brought up is the team officiating concept. I think its safe to say that 80% of us say its not a p/c. The more important piece would be "why" was it ruled incorrectly??
I know in different parts of the country we have different philosophies on who gets first crack at block/charge plays. But staying connected to SDF plays that go to the rim at T/C would permit a great opportunity for a double whistle in this sitch! Would've been nice to see the T pop & maybe the two officials could've communicated & came out with the right call.

It all boils down to a detailed pregame... a flop is a block tonight, 2 opponents going down in the paint after the shot & before the shooter lands needs a whistle, double whistles on 2ndary defenders go to the L, etc.

Being likeminded is crucial here, perhaps the T was passing on the flop/block & the L has bodies on the floor in the paint so he feels obligated to put a whistle on it. IMO, the L never really picked up the 2ndary defender & goes with a p/c.

NoFear: There comes a time when we have to say we were wrong, learn from it & move on. You've been provided with ample rules & caseplays to support the difference between, when LGP must be obtained vs. continuous motion.

Thanks tref, I am here to learn. I understand LGP and continuous motion I am not using one over the other. I am using them together.
Aren’t they to be used but together?
Please would you point out the case play once more?
Thanks!

[APG]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

Thanks tref, I am here to learn. I understand LGP and continuous motion I am not using one over the other. I am using them together.
Aren’t they to be used but together?
Please would you point out the case play once more?
Thanks!

4-11 Continuous Motion

ART. 1...Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by a defensive player during the interval which beings when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.
ART. 2...If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movements, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

Continuous motion and LGP have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Again the applicable rule is 4-23-4b. Also, you stated he never obtained LGP, when in fact he did. He got it, at the latest, right before A1 took off. His problem is that LGP does not allow him to lean sideways into contact, which he did, thus earning the block. Had he not leaned and still been run over, the timing was in his favor.

B1 got to his spot at least right before A1 took off by that time A1 was in the act of shooting B1 is late.

@ :10 A1 has gathered the ball this is the start of his layup/shot, 2 feet in the air dribble has ended. B1 as you can see @:02 B1 has not established LGP, B1 has 2 feet on playing court but his torso is not face A1.

[tref]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

Thanks tref, I am here to learn.

Please would you point out the case play once more?
Thanks!

Arent we all!

I'll try to do you one better, how about the rule as written?

4-23-4
Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without the ball:

b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.

Like Ragu... it's in there!


It sounds like your problem with understading the rule lies here:

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

B1 got to his spot at least right before A1 took off by that time A1 was in the act of shooting B1 is late.

Took off = Alight
Defender must obtain LGP prior to this.

Act of shooting = Gather
Defender can obtain LGP here OR before the shooter "takes off" & may move to maintain LGP during the act of shooting.

I'm sure you've seen a "set-shot" before? They never "take off" or alight but they still are in the "act of shooting" at some point.

On block/charge plays if we punch it, continuous motion is out the window & LGP is all that applies. If we block it, continuous motion applies because LGP obviously wasn't established.

To me its one or the other, we need not combine these rules to come to a decision.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

4-11 Continuous Motion

ART. 1...Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by a defensive player during the interval which beings when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.
ART. 2...If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movements, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

Continuous motion and LGP have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

If B1 did not gain LGP like in this play then we allow A1 to continue with his shoot. Because B1 has fouled A1.
They something to do with each other, right?

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Again, 4-41-3 does not apply to legal guarding position...heck even guarding at all. It tells us when the try begins and that's only important in determining whether CONTINUOUS MOTION will apply when the defense commits a foul.

4-23
ART. 4 ...Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without the ball:

b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position BEFORE the opponent left the floor.

The bold part is my emphasis. Nowhere does it say that LGP must be obtained before the gather.

We need to know when the shot begins in order the establish if the defender has LGP

[APG]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

If B1 did not gain LGP like in this play then we allow A1 to continue with his shoot. Because B1 has fouled A1.
They something to do with each other, right?

We allow A1 to continue with his try because he was fouled while in the act of shooting...just like we would anytime. That's all that continuous motion deals with...whether a basket will count due to a defense foul during the act of shooting. It doesn't tell us that a defender must be there prior to the gather. The End.

The only rule that deals with LGP and when a defensive player has to obtain it in regards to an airborne player has been posted 3 times already...it's must be obtained before a player is airborne.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

We need to know when the shot begins in order the establish if the defender has LGP

Where do you get this info from?

You still have yet cite a rule or case play showing this to be the case.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by tref

Arent we all!

I'll try to do you one better, how about the rule as written?

4-23-4
Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without the ball:

b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.

Like Ragu... it's in there!


It sounds like your problem with understading the rule lies here:



Took off = Alight
Defender must obtain LGP prior to this.

Act of shooting = Gather
Defender can obtain LGP here OR before the shooter "takes off" & may move to maintain LGP during the act of shooting.

I'm sure you've seen a "set-shot" before? They never "take off" or alight but they still are in the "act of shooting" at some point.

On block/charge plays if we punch it, continuous motion is out the window & LGP is all that applies. If we block it, continuous motion applies because LGP obviously wasn't established.

To me its one or the other, we need not combine these rules to come to a decision.

An airborne opponent with the ball might not be an airborne shooter.
An airborne shooter has protection from the start of the shot and this might be some distance away, our view has to be wide enough to see where A1 starts/gathers the ball and what B1 is doing, here we need to know if B1 has LGP or not.

[APG]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

An airborne opponent with the ball might not be an airborne shooter.
An airborne shooter has protection from the start of the shot and this might be some distance away, our view has to be wide enough to see where A1 starts/gathers the ball and what B1 is doing, here we need to know if B1 has LGP or not.

You do realize you're the only one who's supporting this position. You should probably rethink your position when everyone in the thread has disagreed with you. Literally no one has even come close to supporting your interpretation.

No rule set requires a defender to get a legal position prior to gathering the ball. None. No matter how much you try to combine or misinterpret rules...heck, even in the NBA, where a defender has to be there slightly earlier than under NF/NCAA rules, they require the defender to be there prior to the upward motion of the offensive player. If we followed your interpretation of the rule, there would be almost no charges on plays to the basket.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Where do you get this info from?

You still have yet cite a rule or case play showing this to be the case.

Rule 4-23-1 Guarding....provided such player get there first without illegally contacting an opponent...
Rule 4-23-2 To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
Rule 4-23-2 a, b.
Rule 4-41-1 Shooting....
Rule 4-41-4The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

You do realize you're the only one who's supporting this position. You should probably rethink your position when everyone in the thread has disagreed with you. Literally no one has even come close to supporting your interpretation.

No rule set requires a defender to get a legal position prior to gathering the ball. None. No matter how much you try to combine or misinterpret rules...heck, even in the NBA, where a defender has to be there slightly earlier than under NF/NCAA rules, they require the defender to be there prior to the upward motion of the offensive player. If we followed your interpretation of the rule, there would be almost no charges on plays to the basket.

So are you calling a player control foul on this play?