You Make The Call

[tref]

Originally Posted by Brad

If you have a call, it should be a block. If you have a no call, I could live with that as well.

Calling a PC on this is horrible.

The offensive player doesn't make any contact with the chest. He barely makes contact at all -- the defensive player's right arm touches the offensive players hip and then the defensive player flops to the floor.

This isn't even close. If you think it is, go full screen on YouTube so that you can get a better look!

Absofreakinglutely, call it like it is Brad!

An important factor that hasn't been brought up is the team officiating concept. I think its safe to say that 80% of us say its not a p/c. The more important piece would be "why" was it ruled incorrectly??
I know in different parts of the country we have different philosophies on who gets first crack at block/charge plays. But staying connected to SDF plays that go to the rim at T/C would permit a great opportunity for a double whistle in this sitch! Would've been nice to see the T pop & maybe the two officials could've communicated & came out with the right call.

It all boils down to a detailed pregame... a flop is a block tonight, 2 opponents going down in the paint after the shot & before the shooter lands needs a whistle, double whistles on 2ndary defenders go to the L, etc.

Being likeminded is crucial here, perhaps the T was passing on the flop/block & the L has bodies on the floor in the paint so he feels obligated to put a whistle on it. IMO, the L never really picked up the 2ndary defender & goes with a p/c.

NoFear: There comes a time when we have to say we were wrong, learn from it & move on. You've been provided with ample rules & caseplays to support the difference between, when LGP must be obtained vs. continuous motion.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

...Being likeminded is crucial here, perhaps the T was passing on the flop/block & the L has bodies on the floor in the paint so he feels obligated to put a whistle on it. IMO, the L never really picked up the 2ndary defender & goes with a p/c.
...

This was the Lead's call. No way the T can pick up the secondary defender (B2) on this play. T has A1 being contesting by B1 on the drive and then B2 shows up right in front of the Lead. The Lead rightfully had the only whistle on this play, just unfortunate that replays shows he probably got it wrong.

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

This was the Lead's call. No way the T can pick up the secondary defender (B2) on this play. T has A1 being contesting by B1 on the drive and then B2 shows up right in front of the Lead. The Lead rightfully had the only whistle on this play, just unfortunate that replays shows he probably got it wrong.

So what happened to staying connected to plays that originate in your PCA?

Isn't the primary function of the T to be refereeing the ball handler & defender while seeing as many of the other 8 players as possible?

I understand that some officials choose to give L 1st crack at it, but there's nothing wrong with doubling down in proper cadence, especially when we see the L is about to get it wrong. I think the official who saw the start of the play, then saw it develop towards the rim & saw the finish of the play has a better chance of getting it right than the official who catches the a$$-end of the play.

In a perfect world, after the L pops & before he punches: T *tweet tweet - tweet tweet* Get together for less than 7 seconds, score it, block, 1 shot.
L buys the beer!

Say for instance we have the same play but it comes from the Cs side. The 2ndary defender is on the other side of the lane line & the L didnt get a chance to rotate. That C had better be able to pick up the defender if we dont want the L calling across paint!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

So what happened to staying connected to plays that originate in your PCA?

Isn't the primary function of the T to be refereeing the ball handler & defender while seeing as many of the other 8 players as possible?

I understand that some officials choose to give L 1st crack at it, but there's nothing wrong with doubling down in proper cadence, especially when we see the L is about to get it wrong. I think the official who saw the start of the play, then saw it develop towards the rim & saw the finish of the play has a better chance of getting it right than the official who catches the a$$-end of the play.

In a perfect world, after the L pops & before he punches: T *tweet tweet - tweet tweet* Get together for less than 7 seconds, score it, block, 1 shot.
L buys the beer!

Look at the play again. The Trail initially did not follow the play down so he was out of position. And even if he did follow the play he would not have seen the secondary defender move into place because A1 & B1 would have blocked his view.

Originally Posted by tref

Say for instance we have the same play but it comes from the Cs side. The 2ndary defender is on the other side of the lane line & the L didnt get a chance to rotate. That C had better be able to pick up the defender if we dont want the L calling across paint!

Hopefully the Lead would have at least closed down so he would have still had a good look. But regardless if the play would have originated from the C's PCA he would have been at the free throw line extended when the play started, not at half court. So he would have had been below the play the play and had a clean look at any secondary defenders coming into his viewing area.

[tref]

Cool, we agree... somewhat

The T needs to stay connected here! But If the C should position themselves to pick up 2ndary defenders, so should the T. Not saying to guess, if you dont see it, then you don't see it! But at the rate the game is progressing, the good officiail must be able to multi-task.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

Cool, we agree... somewhat

The T needs to stay connected here! But If the C should position themselves to pick up 2ndary defenders, so should the T. Not saying to guess, if you dont see it, then you don't see it! But at the rate the game is progressing, the good officiail must be able to multi-task.

I don't see how the T can position himself to see a secondary defender on this play. He has the play from half court, his first priority is to see between the defender and ball-handler, which he may still have done when he was out of camera shot. The T stays connected by refereeing B1 on this play. The Lead stays connected by picking up the secondary defender.

The C would have been set up at the free throw line looking back at the play. His peripheral would allow him to pick up a secondary defender coming from the paint.

You cannot compare the T and C on this play.

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I don't see how the T can position himself to see a secondary defender on this play. He has the play from half court, his first priority is to see between the defender and ball-handler, which he may still have done when he was out of camera shot. The T stays connected by refereeing B1 on this play. The Lead stays connected by picking up the secondary defender.

As I look a bit closer at this play & in defense of the T, the 2ndary defender is coming over at the same time that the initial defender gets beat... you're right, tough play for the T (only because he got stuck in the mud & didnt position adjust by taking a mere 3-4 steps down).

On the other hand, if B2 senses the defender will be beat (his reason for coming to help B1) shouldn't the T be thinking the same thing, if not a step ahead of the young player?

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by tref

It all boils down to a detailed pregame... a flop is a block tonight, 2 opponents going down in the paint after the shot & before the shooter lands needs a whistle, double whistles on 2ndary defenders go to the L, etc.

Being likeminded is crucial here, perhaps the T was passing on the flop/block & the L has bodies on the floor in the paint so he feels obligated to put a whistle on it. IMO, the L never really picked up the 2ndary defender & goes with a p/c.

Same point BNR made.

I'm also in strong agreement that plays like this need to be part of the crews pregame, good point.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by tref

It all boils down to a detailed pregame... a flop is a block tonight

I don't understand this mentality. Why isn't a flop simply a flop?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I don't understand this mentality. Why isn't a flop simply a flop?

Yep. There's nothing illegal about a player falling backwards to absorb contact.

[tref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I don't understand this mentality. Why isn't a flop simply a flop?

When a flop doesnt result in any contact whatsoever, it obviously cannot be a block.

When a flop causes the airborne shooter to hit the deck, in order to do our job & protect the shooter, to me, its gotta be a block.

When 2 bodies are down & the defender laid down causing the shooter to go down... BLOCK.

In my experiences, calling a flop a block keeps players from flopping.
I've even heard coaches say to their players, "Play D & stay on your feet, they arent going for it tonight!"

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yep. There's nothing illegal about a player falling backwards to absorb contact.

Yep. They may also turn or duck when contact is immenent.
The bolded part is not only part of that rule, it is also missing from this equation. Sorta like the word intentional in a kicking violation.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

Yep. They may also turn or duck when contact is immenent.
The bolded part is not only part of that rule, it is also missing from this equation. Sorta like the word intentional in a kicking violation.

And on a play like this the defender gets the benefit of the doubt on whether contact is imminent. No way I'd consider the OP does not involve imminent contact, for example.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And on a play like this the defender gets the benefit of the doubt on whether contact is imminent. No way I'd consider the OP does not involve imminent contact, for example.

IDK Snaqs.
For me imminent implies that it is obvious that the shooter/passer is about to go "to & through" the defender. As I stated waaaay back in this thread, A1 never got "to" let alone showed any signs whatsoever of going "through" the defender. He11, IMO he made every effort to avoid contact.

[Clark Kent]

I know my opinion prolly doesn't matter much in all these mess of opinions and thoughts but I'm sharing it anyway.

I can see everyone's point. From Player Control, to Block to No call and realize that even in slow motion replay and having watched it 10 times we all can have different opinions.

Although there is no way to prove my theory, but I believe that had the defender stood in there playing "solid" defense and tried to stay on his feet this would have been a no call situation with the offensive player scoring the basket with "marginal" contact.

To me this play comes down to so many other things than a simple block/charge call. It funnels down to my personal philosophy of officiating basketball. I believe in being as consistent as possible as a crew and as an individual. Things that have occurred prior in this game have set a precedence and thus I feel the right call would be that which has matched previous calls.

In this situation I believe that the defender had established LGP. As per rule 4 under "guarding" the defender has the right to "turn or duck to absorb shock when contact by the dribbler is imminent." But it doesn't address how we handle a play where the defender falls down prior to contact or with very limited contact. Only under rule 10 does it give us an application of how to deal with one who fakes being fouled. I'd be hesitant to declare that this defender faked being fouled because I honestly believe that he fell only when he felt contact (even though it may have been very slight contact).

In short I think the play can be validated either way you look at it. I agree with prior posts that with two apposing players going to the floor they've made the decision for you that a whistle needs to accompany the play, so I don't think a no call is an sagacious option even tho I do feel that the contact (if any) was slight. Either call block or charge is going to be questioned.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by tref

Absofreakinglutely, call it like it is Brad!

An important factor that hasn't been brought up is the team officiating concept. I think its safe to say that 80% of us say its not a p/c. The more important piece would be "why" was it ruled incorrectly??
I know in different parts of the country we have different philosophies on who gets first crack at block/charge plays. But staying connected to SDF plays that go to the rim at T/C would permit a great opportunity for a double whistle in this sitch! Would've been nice to see the T pop & maybe the two officials could've communicated & came out with the right call.

It all boils down to a detailed pregame... a flop is a block tonight, 2 opponents going down in the paint after the shot & before the shooter lands needs a whistle, double whistles on 2ndary defenders go to the L, etc.

Being likeminded is crucial here, perhaps the T was passing on the flop/block & the L has bodies on the floor in the paint so he feels obligated to put a whistle on it. IMO, the L never really picked up the 2ndary defender & goes with a p/c.

NoFear: There comes a time when we have to say we were wrong, learn from it & move on. You've been provided with ample rules & caseplays to support the difference between, when LGP must be obtained vs. continuous motion.

Thanks tref, I am here to learn. I understand LGP and continuous motion I am not using one over the other. I am using them together.
Aren’t they to be used but together?
Please would you point out the case play once more?
Thanks!