The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #91 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 01, 2011, 02:32pm
APG APG is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,889
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFear2020 View Post
So are you calling a player control foul on this play?
No, I'm calling a block because I had lateral movement by the defender AFTER the player was airborne...like I stated in my first post.
__________________
Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, given a chance to climb, they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions.

Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.

Reply With Quote
  #92 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 01, 2011, 02:33pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
We allow A1 to continue with his try because he was fouled while in the act of shooting...just like we would anytime. That's all that continuous motion deals with...whether a basket will count due to a defense foul during the act of shooting. It doesn't tell us that a defender must be there prior to the gather. The End.

The only rule that deals with LGP and when a defensive player has to obtain it in regards to an airborne player has been posted 3 times already...it's must be obtained before a player is airborne.
Rule 4-23 tells us how to guard legally and how obtain LGP and in order to know if LGP was obtained Rule 4-41 tells us when the act of shooting begins.
Reply With Quote
  #93 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 01, 2011, 02:34pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
No, I'm calling a block because I had lateral movement by the defender AFTER the player was airborne...like I stated in my first post.
At least you got the call right!
Reply With Quote
  #94 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 01, 2011, 02:36pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFear2020 View Post
Rule 4-23-1 Guarding....provided such player get there first without illegally contacting an opponent...
Rule 4-23-2 To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
Rule 4-23-2 a, b.
Rule 4-41-1 Shooting....
Rule 4-41-4The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball
No combination of these rules says a defender must have LGP before a offensive player begins his shot. Why are you ignoring the cites about the defender establishing LGP before A1 leaves the ground?
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #95 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 01, 2011, 02:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: MST
Posts: 248
I know my opinion prolly doesn't matter much in all these mess of opinions and thoughts but I'm sharing it anyway.

I can see everyone's point. From Player Control, to Block to No call and realize that even in slow motion replay and having watched it 10 times we all can have different opinions.

Although there is no way to prove my theory, but I believe that had the defender stood in there playing "solid" defense and tried to stay on his feet this would have been a no call situation with the offensive player scoring the basket with "marginal" contact.

To me this play comes down to so many other things than a simple block/charge call. It funnels down to my personal philosophy of officiating basketball. I believe in being as consistent as possible as a crew and as an individual. Things that have occurred prior in this game have set a precedence and thus I feel the right call would be that which has matched previous calls.

In this situation I believe that the defender had established LGP. As per rule 4 under "guarding" the defender has the right to "turn or duck to absorb shock when contact by the dribbler is imminent." But it doesn't address how we handle a play where the defender falls down prior to contact or with very limited contact. Only under rule 10 does it give us an application of how to deal with one who fakes being fouled. I'd be hesitant to declare that this defender faked being fouled because I honestly believe that he fell only when he felt contact (even though it may have been very slight contact).

In short I think the play can be validated either way you look at it. I agree with prior posts that with two apposing players going to the floor they've made the decision for you that a whistle needs to accompany the play, so I don't think a no call is an sagacious option even tho I do feel that the contact (if any) was slight. Either call block or charge is going to be questioned.
Reply With Quote
  #96 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 01, 2011, 02:37pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFear2020 View Post
Rule 4-23 tells us how to guard legally and how obtain LGP and in order to know if LGP was obtained Rule 4-41 tells us when the act of shooting begins.
What if A1 passes the ball while airbornre before crashing into B1? When did B1 need to have established LGP?
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #97 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 01, 2011, 02:44pm
APG APG is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,889
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFear2020 View Post
Rule 4-23 tells us how to guard legally and how obtain LGP and in order to know if LGP was obtained Rule 4-41 tells us when the act of shooting begins.
And? I feel like I must be speaking another language because this rule is so simply as to not need the 20 or so responses we've had to it.

The whole reason we have rule 4-41 and the act of shooting defined is because we have rule 4-11 that deals with continuous motion that tells us a try will count if an offensive player is fouled during the act of shooting. Nowhere does any of the guarding rules mention the act of shooting/try. All the guarding rules have told us is if a player has the ball, a defender has to obtain LGP before the player is airborne. Nothing more, nothing less.
__________________
Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, given a chance to climb, they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions.

Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.


Last edited by APG; Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 06:04am.
Reply With Quote
  #98 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 01, 2011, 02:49pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFear2020 View Post
An airborne opponent with the ball might not be an airborne shooter.An airborne shooter has protection from the start of the shot and this might be some distance away, our view has to be wide enough to see where A1 starts/gathers the ball and what B1 is doing, here we need to know if B1 has LGP or not.
Most definitely, I understand this fact. Thats why the rules-makers made it broad! It applies to an airborne opponent that shoots, passes, rebounds or catches a pass. The defender cannot slide under the airborne player, defense must be there prior to the offense alighting.

Block/Charges plays to the basket rarely happen instantaneously upon the gather & usually doesn't involve the primary defender. Usually there's at least a stride prior to crashing (if you're lucky ) in between that gather & stride is where the primary defender reaches in & hits the arm or whatever. At this point LGP is out the door & continuous motion applies.

True, we need to know when the ball is gathered & the legality of the defender at this point. But from the time of the gather & crash there will most likely be some contact that takes LGP by a 2ndary defender out of the equation.
__________________
I gotta new attitude!
Reply With Quote
  #99 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 01, 2011, 02:49pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
No combination of these rules says a defender must have LGP before a offensive player begins his shot. Why are you ignoring the cites about the defender establishing LGP before A1 leaves the ground?
Okay, Rule 4-41 tells us when the act of shooting starts. Rule 4-23 tells us how to guard and obtain LGP, LGP can not be obtain after the shooter was started the act of shooting.
Reply With Quote
  #100 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 01, 2011, 02:56pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by tref View Post
Most definitely, I understand this fact. Thats why the rules-makers made it broad! It applies to an airborne opponent that shoots, passes, rebounds or catches a pass. The defender cannot slide under the airborne player, defense must be there prior to the offense alighting.

Block/Charges plays to the basket rarely happen instantaneously upon the gather & usually doesn't involve the primary defender. Usually there's at least a stride prior to crashing (if you're lucky ) in between that gather & stride is where the primary defender reaches in & hits the arm or whatever. At this point LGP is out the door & continuous motion applies.

True, we need to know when the ball is gathered & the legality of the defender at this point. But from the time of the gather & crash there will most likely be some contact that takes LGP by a 2ndary defender out of the equation.
Airborne shooters are afforded protection under rule 4-41
Reply With Quote
  #101 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 01, 2011, 02:57pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFear2020 View Post
Okay, Rule 4-41 tells us when the act of shooting starts. Rule 4-23 tells us how to guard and obtain LGP, LGP can not be obtain after the shooter was started the act of shooting.
I don't have any books with me.

Could you please quote me word for word which rule says LGP cannot be obtained after the shooter has begun the act of shooting? I've never read that.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #102 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 01, 2011, 02:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
And? I feel like I most be speaking another language because this rule is so simply as to not need the 20 or so responses we've had to it.

The whole reason we have rule 4-41 and the act of shooting defined is because we have rule 4-11 that deals with continuous motion that tells us a try will count if an offensive player is fouled during the act of shooting. Nowhere does any of the guarding rules mention the act of shooting/try. All the guarding rules have told us is if a player has the ball, a defender has to obtain LGP before the player is airborne. Nothing more, nothing less.
Thanks?
I am still maintaining what i have from the start. B1 did not have LGP.

Last edited by NoFear2020; Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 03:01pm.
Reply With Quote
  #103 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 01, 2011, 03:01pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,839
I have never read that a defender must establish LGP before a shooter begins his shooting motion. I have always thought it must be established before A1 gets airborne. I've been wrong all these years? If so I would really appreciate a word-for-word citation so I can stand corrected.

Here is the college rule, I guess HS rules are different in regards to airborne shooters

Rule 4-35:
Art. 4. To establish an initial legal guarding position on the player with the
ball:
a. The guard shall have both feet touching the playing court. When the guard jumps into position initially, both feet must return to the playing court after the jump, for the guard to attain a guarding position.
b. The guard’s torso shall face the opponent.
c. No time and distance shall be required.
d. When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.Exception: (Men) Rule 4-35.7

Art. 5. To establish legal guarding position on a player without the ball:
a. Time and distance shall be required to attain an initial legal position;
b. The guard shall give the opponent the time and distance to avoid
contact;
c. The distance given by the opponent of the player without the ball need not be more than two strides; and
d. When the opponent is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR

Last edited by Raymond; Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 03:08pm.
Reply With Quote
  #104 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 01, 2011, 03:06pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
The only rules that apply to defending an airborne opponent are 4-23-4 and 4-23-5. What youre missing is anything that ties LGP to the shooting motion. You cant just find two separate rules and combine them on a whim.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #105 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 01, 2011, 03:08pm
APG APG is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,889
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFear2020 View Post
Okay, Rule 4-41 tells us when the act of shooting starts. Rule 4-23 tells us how to guard and obtain LGP, LGP can not be obtain after the shooter was started the act of shooting.
4-23 Guadring

ART. 1...Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent....

Now how does a defender legally place the body in the path of an offensive player?

ART 2...To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.

Now when does a guard have to obtain LGP?

ART 4...Guarding an opponent with the ball or stationary opponent without the ball:
a. No time or distance is required to obtain an initial legal position.
b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.

ART. 5... Guarding a moving opponent without the ball:
a. Time and distance are factors required to obtain an initial legal position.
d. If the opponent is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.

That's is. In the section that deals with defining guarding, nowhere do you find the act of shooting.
__________________
Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, given a chance to climb, they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions.

Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.

Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
You Make The Call!! basketball45 Basketball 1 Sat Jan 09, 2010 08:20pm
Make the call cmckenna Baseball 16 Tue May 23, 2006 03:32am
You make the call 2... w_sohl Basketball 10 Thu Jan 24, 2002 10:11pm
You make the call.... w_sohl Basketball 6 Thu Jan 24, 2002 07:08pm
You make the call.... w_sohl Basketball 2 Wed Jan 16, 2002 02:26pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:23pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1