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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 08:19am
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Is this a Backcourt Violation?

A-1 inbounds the ball to A-2 who is heavily contested by B-2 near the division line. A-2, in the FC, tips the ball away from the coverage and the ball goes into the BC. A-2 is the first to grab the ball. Is this BC?
I have read and reread 9.9.3 and am still unclear. Is this considered to be part of the "Throw-in exception"?
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Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 08:31am
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Depends... where did the throw-in originate?
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Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 08:56am
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Originally Posted by tref View Post
Depends... where did the throw-in originate?
Where the throw-in originates doesn't matter. The ball has neither FC or BC status during the throw-in.
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Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 09:06am
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After a made basket, A-1 inbounds the ball to A-2 who is heavily contested by B-2 near the division line. A-2, in the FC, tips the ball away from the coverage and the ball goes into the BC. A-2 is the first to grab the ball.

Is that a controlled tip by A2? Or can no tip be ruled possesion like a tapped rebound that goes into the b/c?

I cannot think of a time where I've seen a b/c endline throw-in go into the f/c & tipped into the b/c by the offense.
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Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 09:11am
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Originally Posted by Brick43 View Post
A-1 inbounds the ball to A-2 who is heavily contested by B-2 near the division line. A-2, in the FC, tips the ball away from the coverage and the ball goes into the BC. A-2 is the first to grab the ball. Is this BC?
I have read and reread 9.9.3 and am still unclear. Is this considered to be part of the "Throw-in exception"?
Four things required for a BC violation:
1) TC
2) Ball in FC
3) A last to touch before ball goes to BC
4) A first to touch after ball goes to BC

Did we have all of those under THE CURRENT rules?

How about under the NEW rules?

Do we need an "exception?"
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Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 09:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tref View Post
After a made basket, A-1 inbounds the ball to A-2 who is heavily contested by B-2 near the division line. A-2, in the FC, tips the ball away from the coverage and the ball goes into the BC. A-2 is the first to grab the ball.

Is that a controlled tip by A2? Or can no tip be ruled possesion like a tapped rebound that goes into the b/c?

I cannot think of a time where I've seen a b/c endline throw-in go into the f/c & tipped into the b/c by the offense.
Still doesn't matter where the throw-in originated. If you deemed the A2's controlled tip as player control/possession would it matter if the throw-in originated in the FC?
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Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 09:16am
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Right, right.
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Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 09:53am
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why are we worried

Why do we care about player possesion on this play? It has no bearing on the FC status of the ball. I believe in the OP we have a violation under the new rules, unless there is an exception granted, and I HOPE there is.
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Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 10:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tref View Post
After a made basket, A-1 inbounds the ball to A-2 who is heavily contested by B-2 near the division line. A-2, in the FC, tips the ball away from the coverage and the ball goes into the BC. A-2 is the first to grab the ball.

Is that a controlled tip by A2? Or can no tip be ruled possesion like a tapped rebound that goes into the b/c?

I cannot think of a time where I've seen a b/c endline throw-in go into the f/c & tipped into the b/c by the offense.
PC requires holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds. It's either a tap, or he held it (even briefly), we have to decide which in these cases.

Rule of thumb; with .2 seconds left would you have allowed such a tap to score? If so, no control.
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Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 10:06am
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Originally Posted by cmathews View Post
Why do we care about player possesion on this play? It has no bearing on the FC status of the ball. ...
Can a player catch the ball in the front court and throw it into the backcourt?

tref is questioning whether A2 had possession and threw the ball into the backcourt based upon the OP's wording.
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Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 10:08am
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Originally Posted by cmathews View Post
Why do we care about player possesion on this play? It has no bearing on the FC status of the ball. I believe in the OP we have a violation under the new rules, unless there is an exception granted, and I HOPE there is.
The OP didn't specify new rules or old rules, and the questions were to help him reason through the question to be able to correctly rule on other simialr situations.
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Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 10:29am
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IMO posting what is to be done under "old" rules may lead to confusion. IF there are "new" rules in place then we officiate to the rules being administered.

I know that what is happening here is the old is being used as a comparison for the new.
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Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 10:38am
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Originally Posted by SmokeEater View Post
IMO posting what is to be done under "old" rules may lead to confusion. IF there are "new" rules in place then we officiate to the rules being administered.

I know that what is happening here is the old is being used as a comparison for the new.
The problem is, all we know are the old rules. We have no idea whether the proper exceptions will be written, or if they'll be written into the case plays, or if a tip in the FC that ends the throw-in will also constitute FC TC for the throw-in team for the purposes of BC violations.
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Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 10:44am
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Originally Posted by SmokeEater View Post
IMO posting what is to be done under "old" rules may lead to confusion. IF there are "new" rules in place then we officiate to the rules being administered.

I know that what is happening here is the old is being used as a comparison for the new.
What snaqwells said, plus many summer games are played under "last year's rules" -- similar questions come up almost every year.
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Old Tue Jun 21, 2011, 11:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tref View Post

Is that a controlled tip by A2?
I'm sorry if I sound like I'm picking nits, or if I'm repeating myself, BUT. . .

There is no such thing as a controlled tip or tap, by rule. A "controlled tip" has no bearing on any play in determining control. Player control is established by HOLDING or DRIBBLING a LIVE ball INBOUNDS. That's it. That's the only way. So a tip or tap, even if intentionally directed, does not establish control. Ever. If you rule that A2 caught the ball before directing into the backcourt, then that's a different story and there is player control.

If the new rule is written to match the NCAA rule, with the same exceptions, then the play in the original post is legal. If they simply add "and during a throw-in" to the definition of team control, then the play in question is a violation.
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